Thread: More stupidity

As per the title. Teen's death while duck shooting 'avoidable' Dunno who is the most stupid - dad for letting the boys out with guns, unsupervised - the kid who somehow shot himself, or the Coroner, who seems to think that stupidity and lack of responsibility can be regulated away. We already have the Firearms Act, The Arms Code and, supposedly, "common sense" which is obviously not that common. But these people "in authority" all seem to be control freaks.

Originally Posted by keneff

As per the title. Teen's death while duck shooting 'avoidable' Dunno who is the most stupid - dad for letting the boys out with guns, unsupervised - the kid who somehow shot himself, or the Coroner, who seems to think that stupidity and lack of responsibility can be regulated away. We already have the Firearms Act, The Arms Code and, supposedly, "common sense" which is obviously not that common. But these people "in authority" all seem to be control freaks.

I love how a teenager shooting himself requires a look at "identifying your taget" as the coroner asks. I am pretty sure everyone in the Mai Mai knew he was not a duck. Aksing in this case for a look at what is considered "supervision" or safety procedures with Teens and shotguns etc fair enough but how the F__K does this situation have anything to do with identifying a target???????? Did the coroner study muppetry at college? Was that even a course?

My understanding of supervision is the person supervising must be "in control" in in a position to take control of the firearm if the person using it is not licensed. To me this means that if you are supervising someone you are in close enough proximity to be able to stop the firearm from being pointed or discharged in any manner other than what is intended. I do not see how one adult can be responsible for supervising three teenagers with shotguns and maintain this level of control over those guns. In that respect I think the cops may need the charges relating to lack of proper supervision and the consequences of those actions to be looked at as in the other part of the coroners request.

Finally I only saw what was reported on the news so I apologise if the facts I got are wrong. I work with statistics and unfortunately I know the chances of the media being "mistaken" are very possible.....

Pretty supervised is arms length away ?

I found it interesting that the opening line for this story reported last night mentioned about re-writing the act...

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

I found it interesting that the opening line for this story reported last night mentioned about re-writing the act...

And it was 2 years ago.Are the coroner's that busy??..

Originally Posted by madjon_

And it was 2 years ago.Are the coroner's that busy??..

I'm pretty sure the coroner has to wait for any criminal court cases to finish before he can make a finding.

Two years through the criminal courts where there was a death involved would be quick. I've had cases go longer than that through the employment court just to fire a employee.

The word "immediate" can mean:

1.occurring or accomplished without delay; instant: an immediate reply.

2.following or preceding without a lapse of time: the immediate future.

3.having no object or space intervening; nearest or next: in the immediate vicinity.

Therefore is it not reasonable to assume that "immediate supervision" means supervision where the supervisor can supervise immediately by being next or nearest to the unlicensed person; to act instantly, if necessary?

[QUOTE=10
Probably wasting your breath 10ring its kinda funny how the "smart ones " can be total dumb asses when it comes to common sense

Sheldon.
Doesn't realize that he offends others,
and really doesn't care.

if i am supervising/training an unlicensed shooter I make bloody sure of the following
1 I am within arms length .
2 they only act on my instruction,when i speak
3 once shot is fired weapon is made safe and handed to me.bolt open -action broken etc. barrells must always point down range.
4 I load the rounds no one else.
5 anyone else in the vicinity is made aware of what we are doing and stays well clear ,unless specifically invited in
6very occasionally with cocky users a wee bit of army discipline is required ,or else my pet I tell you once then my boot goes up your arse.
had that happen with one little smartarse who wouldnt listen using his old mans .270-reckoned it was just a pussy to shoot -didnt like it when i grabbed the barrel and pulled it then shoved it hard back-a baby would hold it tighter,and when he fired the shot it kicked him hard.his old man had no sympathy with him whining about his shoulder.he declined the boot in the arse even though we pointed out it would take the focus away from the so called painful shoulder.
he actually turned out to be a gifted shooter,and funnily enough a very good teacher.

In relation to the above thought coroners have been harping on in this vein for for the past 5 yrs at least,and its highly likely to continue as "classic solution to" all firearms tragedies given they are in fact civil servants reliant on police input

I am sure some of the older forum members may have experienced this, and don't come across all perfect and say "nope":
- Aged ~ 12 yrs, visiting parents' friends property on the edge of town. Farmland out the back. Given 15 shot tube mag 22 to go on my own and get a rabbit whilst olds drank tea and yakked. Happened on several occassions/visits. Had received firearm instruction on many outings with Dad (ex serviceman).
- Aged ~ 15 years, on L&S farm behind Taupo. Dad and mate headed off with one 22. Mate and I given box of bullets and other 22 and headed off in opposite direction. Met up later and compared numbers shot (in those days teaming with rabbits). Jokingly chastised if the ratio per bullets fired wasn't 1:1.
- Aged ~ 14 years. Staying on L&S farm during school hols. Out every day on my own shooting rabbits with farm's 22 Gecado Plinker. Meeting mate from adjacent farm of similar age also armed. More rabbit dead.

Cringe now when I think back. Supervision, even down to the finer point of how it should occur up close - NOPE.
How common in those days - pretty common from my recollection and comparing notes with mates.

My own view is with supervision comes responsibility. The person "supervising" is 100% completely responsible for everything that occurs while the unlicensed person is with the firearm. If you are within arms length or you choose not to be does not matter in the sense that if something goes wrong, no matter how stupid or Darwin like the action may be, you were responsible because you were supervising.

In the situation from the original article, this means that the person supervising those boys is responsible for the death because as a supervising person he was in sole charge and should have been in a position to stop the incident happening. If you have taken every possible step that you can and someone gets hurt, your only defence is what you have done, and what you could have done to prevent it occurring but didn't, that will affect the outcome. If there was nothing further you could have done then that means it probably would have happened anyway.

Originally Posted by zimmer

I am sure some of the older forum members may have experienced this, and don't come across all perfect and say "nope":
- Aged ~ 12 yrs, visiting parents' friends property on the edge of town. Farmland out the back. Given 15 shot tube mag 22 to go on my own and get a rabbit whilst olds drank tea and yakked. Happened on several occassions/visits. Had received firearm instruction on many outings with Dad (ex serviceman).
- Aged ~ 15 years, on L&S farm behind Taupo. Dad and mate headed off with one 22. Mate and I given box of bullets and other 22 and headed off in opposite direction. Met up later and compared numbers shot (in those days teaming with rabbits). Jokingly chastised if the ratio per bullets fired wasn't 1:1.
- Aged ~ 14 years. Staying on L&S farm during school hols. Out every day on my own shooting rabbits with farm's 22 Gecado Plinker. Meeting mate from adjacent farm of similar age also armed. More rabbit dead.

Cringe now when I think back. Supervision, even down to the finer point of how it should occur up close - NOPE.
How common in those days - pretty common from my recollection and comparing notes with mates.

No need to cringe. It was very different back then Zimmer. At 12 I was shooting rats with a .22 at the dump in Newells Road in Tokoroa and I sure as hell wasn't dropped off out there. Kid, bike, rifle across handle bars. No one thought twice about seeing a kid with a rifle back then. Despite the over regulated world we live in, I bet there are still places in this country where kids that age and younger are still shooting bunnies by themselves and are perfectly safe in doing so because they have been drilled in how to properly handle a firearm since they were old enough to walk across a paddock with their old man. For those of you that have grown up wrapped in the cotton wool of modern nanny state legislation I would note that this is not me being an advocate for illegal activities, it is just the pragmatist in me saying that it will still be happening.

Originally Posted by Rushy

No need to cringe. It was very different back then Zimmer. At 12 I was shooting rats with a .22 at the dump in Newells Road in Tokoroa and I sure as hell wasn't dropped off out there. Kid, bike, rifle across handle bars. No one thought twice about seeing a kid with a rifle back then. Despite the over regulated world we live in, I bet there are still places in this country where kids that age and younger are still shooting bunnies by themselves and are perfectly safe in doing so because they have been drilled in how to properly handle a firearm since they were old enough to walk across a paddock with their old man. For those of you that have grown up wrapped in the cotton wool of modern nanny state legislation I would note that this is not me being an advocate for illegal activities, it is just the pragmatist in me saying that it will still be happening.

Indeed. Thee was quite a different attitude and those kids clearly had a level of maturity that was acceptable. ( I would go as far as suggest a rural upbringing perhaps)

But todays society has had a significant attitude shift too. Back then most people knew what rifles did, and understood their function. If you were walking in town with a firearm slung over your shoulder, they knew that maybe you did not want to leave it in the vehicle for whatever reason. Or that you were popping into town on the way to a hunt etc. They trusted you to know that it was safe and that you had a valid reason for having it with you. Nowadays they are more likely to phone 111 screaming MURDER, MURDER, MURDER every time they see a canvas gunbag......We seem to be breeding drama queens rather than sensible people.

But its not all bad. The same attitude back the also seemed to apply to drink driving. Even as late as the 80s it was considered unlucky if you got caught driving drunk. The car seemed to know its own way home......Now the attitude if you get caught is more "you idiot, why were you dumb enough to think you should drive?". Note that the law has not changed much. It was illegal then as much a sit is illegal now, but the attitude towards it being acceptable or unacceptable has changed.

Originally Posted by zimmer

I am sure some of the older forum members may have experienced this, and don't come across all perfect and say "nope":
- Aged ~ 12 yrs, visiting parents' friends property on the edge of town. Farmland out the back. Given 15 shot tube mag 22 to go on my own and get a rabbit whilst olds drank tea and yakked. Happened on several occassions/visits. Had received firearm instruction on many outings with Dad (ex serviceman).
- Aged ~ 15 years, on L&S farm behind Taupo. Dad and mate headed off with one 22. Mate and I given box of bullets and other 22 and headed off in opposite direction. Met up later and compared numbers shot (in those days teaming with rabbits). Jokingly chastised if the ratio per bullets fired wasn't 1:1.
- Aged ~ 14 years. Staying on L&S farm during school hols. Out every day on my own shooting rabbits with farm's 22 Gecado Plinker. Meeting mate from adjacent farm of similar age also armed. More rabbit dead.

Cringe now when I think back. Supervision, even down to the finer point of how it should occur up close - NOPE.
How common in those days - pretty common from my recollection and comparing notes with mates.

Sounds very familiar, Zimmer. And I remember how proud I felt when the old man trusted me enough to say, "Go and get us a couple of abbits for dinner, headshots only" while handing me his old Cooey single-shot .22. But that only came after about 3 years of VERY close supervision and whack round the head instruction.