Thread: New gun security laws

Originally Posted by Jexla

How's this for an opinion?

My opinion is the fact that the annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population has remained much the same since 1995 that gun crime is not increasing and has fallen dramatically from what it was pre 1995.

We've even had record low rates during 2011 and 2012.

The annual rate of firearm homicide per 100,000 population is:

Attachment 52298

What a great example of using very selective statistics to back an argument.

Come on jexla, I'm sure you can see the blatantly obvious holes in that argument.

Originally Posted by Savage1

It took you longer to bite than I expected, do you really think c-cat is more deadly than a-cat?

Depends what the firearm is that is on C cat. If it's select fire then yes Mr policeman, I do think it is more deadly, don't you?

Originally Posted by Savage1

What a great example of using very selective statistics to back an argument.

Come on jexla, I'm sure you can see the blatantly obvious holes in that argument.

Sure, we don't have statistics on actual gun crime because your lot don't record it. What we do have however is statistics on gun murders and it's the best we have to go off, unless you know some better stats to use, cough 'em up....

Originally Posted by Jexla

Depends what the firearm is that is on C cat. If it's select fire then yes Mr policeman, I do think it is more deadly, don't you?



Sure, we don't have statistics on actual gun crime because your lot don't record it. What we do have however is statistics on gun murders and it's the best we have to go off, unless you know some better stats to use, cough 'em up....

So you think E cat is no deadlier than A but C is more deadly than A if it is select fire? I fail to follow your logic.

If you only have a narrow amount of information then avoid coming to broad conclusions, homicides are far from being the only crimes that involve firearms, a lot aren't reported, often some of the worst of them. Going off of your logic then there wouldn't have been a single firearms offence in Northland so far this year, which is funny because I've personally lost count of the number of crims I've confronted this year that who have been carrying firearms at the time and/or very recently used one in the commission of a crime. But hey, what would I know compared to someone who sits at a desk most days.

Originally Posted by Savage1

So you think E cat is no deadlier than A but C is more deadly than A if it is select fire? I fail to follow your logic.

You're thick, I have finally found my signature. I won't bother arguing with you.

Originally Posted by Jexla

You're thick, I have finally found my signature. I won't bother arguing with you.

When one stoops to ad hominem attacks the argument's already lost.

Originally Posted by Jexla

You're thick, I have finally found my signature. I won't bother arguing with you.

So,

I'll assume your logic is that a C cat can put down a higher rate of fire.

A cat rifles, can only hold 7 rounds unless .22lr. An E is unlimited. Sure you can change magazines in under 5 seconds but that is still a lot of mag changes, four to get 30 rounds out so at least 10 seconds, especially fumbling small 7 round magazines. So the rate of fire is far far higher out of an E cat than an A cat rifle and would take less skill to lay that fire down accurately.

Full auto is very hard to control, so only when you have a crush of people within 25m will it actually be any more deadly, even then it'd be questionable. I'd rather take on an idiot with a full auto than an idiot with an E cat.

E cats are also easier to conceal as you can get folding and telescopic stocks which reduce the length to below 762mm. They can also chuck a bayonet on the front. You can even get an E cat MP5 with only a slightly longer barrel than standard.

There's a reason why most Police and Army rifles have almost all the same features as an E-cat rifle.

To say an E-cat is no more deadly than an A cat is wrong in my opinion, sure it's easy enough to buy large capacity magazines and clip onto an A cat but that's another matter, and it also makes them E cat.

So keep your signature up as long as you want, it just shows a level of arrogance and immaturity.

I'm actually disappointed in myself that I bothered to reply.

Originally Posted by Savage1

So,

I'll assume your logic is that a C cat can put down a higher rate of fire.

A cat rifles, can only hold 7 rounds unless .22lr. An E is unlimited. Sure you can change magazines in under 5 seconds but that is still a lot of mag changes, four to get 30 rounds out so at least 10 seconds, especially fumbling small 7 round magazines. So the rate of fire is far far higher out of an E cat than an A cat rifle and would take less skill to lay that fire down accurately.

Full auto is very hard to control, so only when you have a crush of people within 25m will it actually be any more deadly, even then it'd be questionable. I'd rather take on an idiot with a full auto than an idiot with an E cat.

E cats are also easier to conceal as you can get folding and telescopic stocks which reduce the length to below 762mm. They can also chuck a bayonet on the front. You can even get an E cat MP5 with only a slightly longer barrel than standard.

There's a reason why most Police and Army rifles have almost all the same features as an E-cat rifle.

To say an E-cat is no more deadly than an A cat is wrong in my opinion, sure it's easy enough to buy large capacity magazines and clip onto an A cat but that's another matter, and it also makes them E cat.

So keep your signature up as long as you want, it just shows a level of arrogance and immaturity.

I'm actually disappointed in myself that I bothered to reply.

i think you mean rimfire not just 22lr.
17hmr, 22 mag etc are still allowed 15 in the mag

Originally Posted by gonetropo

i think you mean rimfire not just 22lr.
17hmr, 22 mag etc are still allowed 15 in the mag

.17 HMR or .17 HM2 are restricted to seven rounds in a semi-auto for A-cat.

15 rounds is for .22 inch rimfire, which would include short, long, long rifle or magnums.

Read section 2 of the Arms Act.

Originally Posted by Savage1

A cat rifles, can only hold 7 rounds unless .22lr. An E is unlimited.

You heard it here first folks, no A cat rifle can hold more than 7 rounds.
Better hand in your Troy pump actions to Savage1 directly.

Originally Posted by Savage1

E cats are also easier to conceal as you can get folding and telescopic stocks which reduce the length to below 762mm.

Chop chop chop, swap swap swap, they simply don't give a fuck about e cat rules.

Originally Posted by Savage1

They can also chuck a bayonet on the front.

A criminal doesn't care, he'll do it anyway, the firearm is stolen anyway and he's trying to kill people, why would he care?
Also you have a bigger problem to worry about than a pointy thing at the end of the gun.

Originally Posted by Savage1

You can even get an E cat MP5 with only a slightly longer barrel than standard.

Guess what that means? You could even make an A cat one too!

Originally Posted by Savage1

To say an E-cat is no more deadly than an A cat is wrong in my opinion, sure it's easy enough to buy large capacity magazines and clip onto an A cat but that's another matter, and it also makes them E cat.

Well that sure would stop a criminal using a stolen A cat AR, he'd never dare to use a 30 round mag in it and risk being done for having an E cat gun right?

Originally Posted by Savage1

So keep your signature up as long as you want, it just shows a level of arrogance and immaturity.

Didn't need your permission (Believe it or not).


Think you overall missed the boat here Savage.
Stealing an A cat AR vs an E cat AR makes not a single drop of difference, both can fit normal capacity magazines. Both can have pistol grips. Both can even be converted to full auto.
All of those are facts.

EDIT:
P.S Shout out to those PMing me.

Originally Posted by Jexla

You heard it here first folks, no A cat rifle can hold more than 7 rounds.
Better hand in your Troy pump actions to Savage1 directly.



Chop chop chop, swap swap swap, they simply don't give a fuck about e cat rules.



A criminal doesn't care, he'll do it anyway, the firearm is stolen anyway and he's trying to kill people, why would he care?
Also you have a bigger problem to worry about than a pointy thing at the end of the gun.



Guess what that means? You could even make an A cat one too!



Well that sure would stop a criminal using a stolen A cat AR, he'd never dare to use a 30 round mag in it and risk being done for having an E cat gun right?



Didn't need your permission (Believe it or not).


Think you overall missed the boat here Savage.
Stealing an A cat AR vs an E cat AR makes not a single drop of difference, both can fit normal capacity magazines. Both can have pistol grips. Both can even be converted to full auto.
All of those are facts.

EDIT:
P.S Shout out to those PMing me.

See now you're just moving the goal posts to cover your argument. Now you're talking about guns being modified, essentially making them a different category. As I was talking about rates of fire I was obviously talking about semi autos.

Good luck getting an mp5 on a cat considering it has a freestanding pistol grip and telescopic stock.

So your logic is that a cat is just as deadly as e cat because it can be modified to e cat making it an e cat, therefore an a cat isn't as deadly as an e cat. Makes perfect sense. You also admit that they can be converted to c cat, therefore making c cat no more deadly than a cat by your logic, however you said that c is more deadly than a cat. Since they can be chopped then they're all as deadly as a pistol?

You're not the only one that gets PMs.

Originally Posted by Savage1

A cat rifles, can only hold 7 rounds unless .22lr. An E is unlimited. Sure you can change magazines in under 5 seconds...

Semi A-cat rifles can only hold 7 rounds, non semi is unlimited too. I find your post suggesting which FAL holder would be more deadly in some sort of shootout with police amusing.

Reality is, they are criminals and they don't care what features the firearm has. That's why they are criminals.

I think it's sad you two are caught up in a ruckus on this forum, in some ways I agree with both of you. I can see why @Jexla has his view on police considering top level brass is upto some serious ultra vires shit currently.

However this has nothing to do with you @Savage1 or any other law enforcement personnel on this site.

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Reality is, they are criminals and they don't care what features the firearm has. That's why they are criminals.

Best statement of the thread yet.

If someone can explain to me how restricting the rights and freedoms of law abiding has a direct effect on criminal activities then I would love to hear it.
Truth is the "law abiding" are easy targets and since they are easily found its easier to hound them on "technicalities"

Originally Posted by Sasquatch

ultra vires

Everytime someone says that, God kills a puppy.

Because it's the go-to, copy 'n paste, phrase