New gun security laws

Hey guys

Friend of mine recently went into our local h&f to inquire about their e cat safe prices. He was told not to bother as they had received a letter from the police stating that they no longer recognise any of the current e cat safes as approved methods of storage no matter the cert they have and have put a hold on all e and a cat storage checks or something along those lines. The reasoning is that they are going to an approved police engineer that will be the only one able to certify a firearms safe etc and each safe will have to be individually approved not just a model of safe. Apparently due to some safes being approved when really they shouldn't be and the police having no "control" over the certifier.

Anyone else heard anything about this happening?

Not a new "law". If anything a new police policy.

Police policy is not law.

He's/she's going to be one very busy engineer. Only about 20,000 safes to individually inspect (Just noticed you said A cat too, make that 240 odd thousand ).

Good luck to him/her.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

So that's going to open a very very big can of worms. I brought a safe on the proviso that complies it with the regulations and is certified so.NZ Police gonna write me the cheque or replace it with a new one when they change the rules and if so where do I deliver the old one too

I can tell you that's bullshit right from the get go as I have a storage check to do (he called me yesterday to sort a time) from moving house, that means that there's no hold at all.

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Originally Posted by mikee

where do I deliver the old one too

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Through Greg O'Connors front door.

It would be good to have an update to the current laws especially regarding the A cat regulations way to 1980's and well over due an update

probably bullshit

i had a police check 2 weeks ago , guy looked at the safe , noted its rounded edges (as he stated you cant get sharp edge bends on 6mm or more metal) and was fine for the goodies it held .... i say a misinterpretation from HnF ....

Agreed. Hardly likely

Shit I better get in to H&F tomorrow for a bargin:D

I had a discussion the other day when I renewed my FAL, one potential source of the rumour is that the AO was telling me once the Chinese cornered the market in E cat safes, they then dropped the quality, so while the door was 6mm and looked good, the bits you couldn't see were only 4mm, or something along those lines

Of more concern to me was him telling me that you aren't allowed to store your bolts in the same safe as the guns, not even the separate locked cabinet at the top as they could just take the whole safe (even though bolted to the wall and concrete floor). I challenged him on the legal requirements and he relented and said it was what they wanted and a recommendation only, but then there's a box they tick on the renewal form which they tick if you've complied or not......

The other "recommendation" to get the box ticked was that you needed to take the forestocks off your shotguns and store them with the bolts in that other safe spot

I've got nothing against good security and I will take on a few of his recommendation, if I don't use my shotty in the off season it's no hassle to be that much safer. But I think some of it may be starting to get a bit far what is legally required

I would say the H&F staff member was spouting BS.

Not that I disagree with a slight upgrade to the minimum requirements, as I understand they were intended to keep guns away from kids and they work well for this(the child death from gun stats are very interesting) but don't do much to stop even a casual burglar who stumbles across guns. Maybe the E standard is unrealistically high to impose on every one but a bike lock around a pipe is a bit low I feel.

Of course nothing can stop a targeted attack.

Flame on

I think it was the Hyscor brand or something like that hunting a fisting was peddling, they got rejected by police as being not up to spec

I call
Attachment 52214

To start with, A cat fire arms are not required to be stored in a safe.

Cheers
Pete

I thought it was a bit strange thats why I asked. Might go in and talk to one of the guys I know there during the weekend, see if I can get a look at this apparent letter.

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Originally Posted by Skitsokiwi

I thought it was a bit strange thats why I asked. Might go in and talk to one of the guys I know there during the weekend, see if I can get a look at this apparent letter.

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@Skitsokiwi

If us do get a peek at it, take a photo of it an post it up for us all to see.

Cheers
Pete

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Originally Posted by stumpy

i had a police check 2 weeks ago , guy looked at the safe , noted its rounded edges (as he stated you cant get sharp edge bends on 6mm or more metal) and was fine for the goodies it held .... i say a misinterpretation from HnF ....

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if its a "safe" and not a "Steel box or Steel Cabinet" then 6mm steel thickness is NOT required but it appears that all the inspection people and AOs dont seem to understand the regulation, nor is it on security inspection check-sheet (see below) I think its just more "interpretation"
Attachment 52215

A gun safe is quite a lot more robust than any 6mm steel gun cabinet ever will be. Gun cabinets are not gun safes.

There are some E cat gun cabinets that have been sold that have been certified by a registered engineer that have had no actual testing done on them. Also they have not been certified by a qualified locksmith.

Obviously, it's in our best interests to have stringent security standards for E, B, and C category firearms. The regulations regarding A category need upgrading IMHO. Firearm theft should be a concern to all of us who love our sport. Lets not give the anti-gun brigade and media more ammo (so to speak) to take pot shots at us.

@P38 I'll try my best, I'll talk to the my shooting buddy that was told all this again tomorrow as well.

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Originally Posted by hillclima

I had a discussion the other day when I renewed my FAL, one potential source of the rumour is that the AO was telling me once the Chinese cornered the market in E cat safes, they then dropped the quality, so while the door was 6mm and looked good, the bits you couldn't see were only 4mm, or something along those lines

Of more concern to me was him telling me that you aren't allowed to store your bolts in the same safe as the guns, not even the separate locked cabinet at the top as they could just take the whole safe (even though bolted to the wall and concrete floor). I challenged him on the legal requirements and he relented and said it was what they wanted and a recommendation only, but then there's a box they tick on the renewal form which they tick if you've complied or not......

The other "recommendation" to get the box ticked was that you needed to take the forestocks off your shotguns and store them with the bolts in that other safe spot

I've got nothing against good security and I will take on a few of his recommendation, if I don't use my shotty in the off season it's no hassle to be that much safer. But I think some of it may be starting to get a bit far what is legally required

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shit, it sounds like we are going to need multiple safes and dismantle our guns and scatter between safes, no wait the crim could take all the safes!!!

Hamish

the onus should be on people to not steal our guns, not us to have to comply with expensive onerous security requirements that have no evidence of their efficacy

So my buddy ended up ringing our local AO about it, in short some safe manufacturers have been cutting corners, and their Certs say that they "appear" to meet the standard not that they do, he wouldn't say which are fine and which ain't (ridiculous I think). Said they are still processing permits/endorsements but here's the kicker, if you have a safe as your storage they won't sign off on it until they have finished deciding which are going to be reclassified so in effect you won't be able to purchase anything.

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Originally Posted by gimp

the onus should be on people to not steal our guns, not us to have to comply with expensive onerous security requirements that have no evidence of their efficacy

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Maybe when we live in a fantasy land, morally I agree but know that it would never work.

I can't recall from the top of my head an E-cat safe being accessed up here except one where the dick put the key to it in a weak safe right beside it, which also contained the bolts etc, the safe also happened to contain C-cat assault rifles and pistols :yuush: Nice guy, but really?!?! However the vast majority I've come across have been taken from unsecured houses or pathetic a-cat security.

Sorry, rant over.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

Maybe when we live in a fantasy land, morally I agree but know that it would never work.

I can't recall from the top of my head an E-cat safe being accessed up here except one where the dick put the key to it in a weak safe right beside it, which also contained the bolts etc, the safe also happened to contain C-cat assault rifles and pistols :yuush: Nice guy, but really?!?! However the vast majority I've come across have been taken from unsecured houses or pathetic a-cat security.

Sorry, rant over.

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Can I ask what you class as "pathetic a-cat security"?

Im not having a dig but am genuinely curious. When organising the security of my firearms I took it very serious and would like to think others do too. While i dont have an e-cat safe (cost was prohibitive) I would like to think I have done what I can to avoid being part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by stumpy

i had a police check 2 weeks ago , guy looked at the safe , noted its rounded edges (as he stated you cant get sharp edge bends on 6mm or more metal) and was fine for the goodies it held .... i say a misinterpretation from HnF ....

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You can't get a sharp bend with a poked press brake either, and yes there are quite a few of them out there....

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Originally Posted by gimp

the onus should be on people to not steal our guns, not us to have to comply with expensive onerous security requirements that have no evidence of their efficacy

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You've got to be kidding? Dream on. Thieves are exactly what the name implies and we will always have them. Why make it easier for them to steal your firearms. There is plenty of evidence that stringent B, E and C security requirements work at stopping opportunistic thieves from getting access to the firearms within. Professional criminals are a different matter but they're probably not likely to target your place unless you advertise the fact that you own those category firearms.

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Originally Posted by Pineapple

Can I ask what you class as

Im not having a dig but am genuinely curious. When organising the security of my firearms I took it very serious and would like to think others do too. While i dont have an e-cat safe (cost was prohibitive) I would like to think I have done what I can to avoid being part of the problem.

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While your question is directed at Savage1, I can assure you there are plenty of examples of "pathetic a-cat security" out there. The problem is that the original regulations are out of date regarding A cat security. A gun cabinet made out of thin MDF that can be broken into 30 seconds or a thin walled metal locker that can be jimmied open in the same time with a screwdriver are common examples.

On a daily basis we get people coming in having just done there safety test, asking for a cable and padlock to put around there hot water cistern, as this is what they are told on there course, we do not sell them, we only sell cabinets, customers will spend 000s on guns but object to paying $299 on the cheapest cabinet ? , you will never prevent the people who target guns to steal, but you will stop the opportunist thief

What I think they need to sort out is that the advice I consistent. Dad also just did he renewal yesterday, and he has one of the thin walled metal lockers, with a small safe for bolts. AO said locker was fine and no worries, whereas mine had been saying they weren't.

If they can steal money machines, what hope huh? Better under the bed where you've got a chance of stopping the theft?

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Originally Posted by hillclima

What I think they need to sort out is that the advice I consistent. Dad also just did he renewal yesterday, and he has one of the thin walled metal lockers, with a small safe for bolts. AO said locker was fine and no worries, whereas mine had been saying they weren't.

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Might be an age thing, I've seen the same here, grandad ok, grandson, no,no. Both with the same security in diff house?

Here a family move out 6 weeks after husbands fal is renewed, new owners move in when police get round to following up change of address he is told it wont pass (both are A cat only). Went up the chain and a second vetter passed it.
Seems to be a lack of consistency in applying the rules in a lot of these posts.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Seems to be a lack of consistency in applying the rules in a lot of these posts.

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That's going to happen with A cat security because the regulations aren't as specific as they should be. What exactly does "stout construction" mean in absolute terms? It's too loose and open to interpretation and thus we have the variables.

Lax A cat security story's

I used to have a push bike shop, a large one by NZ standards and in a high profile location so we got a lot of people-several every week-coming in asking for bike locks to lock up guns. We even ended up labeling one model as suitable after getting sick of people who didn't ask for advice bringing locks back as the lock heads were to big to fit through actions. It became our biggest selling lock, maybe because bike owners thought that if it was good for guns it must be extra strong-it wasn't as like all cable locks it could be cut through in seconds with good side cutters.

I thought this had gone the way of the dodo over the last few years but only a couple of months I got a bike lock around a pipe ticked off as A cat security at my nominated NZ address. I would not have done this if I thought I would ever have a gun at that house but I was surprised the veter suggested it.

A year ago a young guy I know had his house burgled, he had a couple of cheep guns in a old thin sheet metal clothing locker-the crim just kicked the door to bend it and the peeled the top open enough to lift his guns out.

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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

Obviously, it's in our best interests to have stringent security standards for E, B, and C category firearms. The regulations regarding A category need upgrading IMHO. Firearm theft should be a concern to all of us who love our sport. Lets not give the anti-gun brigade and media more ammo (so to speak) to take pot shots at us.

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Do you really feel an E cat gun is any more deadly than an A cat gun?

I know you mean well, but this is part of the issue, we accept their horrible made up definitions and classes as fact and as if they make sense....

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Do you really feel an E cat gun is any more deadly than an A cat gun?

I know you mean well, but this is part of the issue, we accept their horrible made up definitions and classes as fact and as if they make sense....

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I know where you're coming from, however it really doesn't matter what I think about the E cat firearm classification. The law makers have decided that MSSA firearms are potentially more lethal and that's it (at least for now).

My main concern is with the poor level of A cat firearm security out there. The licence holder of an A cat is often unaware that their security is inadequate because it was passed as being okay up to ten years ago. Some just don't think they'll ever be robbed and some don't seem to care one way or the other. Some grew up in the era of having the .22 situated behind the washhouse door and haven't got over it.

One thing for sure is that more and more criminals are using firearms. In this age of aggressive drugs what responsible person wants a P fuelled criminal getting there hands on any firearm? Surely common sense should tell us that the tougher the security the harder it is a criminal to steal your firearm and use it in a crime or sell or trade it to an organized crime gang.

Actually , the safe is only a delay device is ONLY works when no one is at home & for a limited time , when people are home then , all the crim does is treaten you or family , and you will open up the safe for the crim , and he has access in side a few secs , that was told to me my a member of the Police .

Yes but as home invasions are actually rare, and most robberys take place in empty homes, then the policeman is giving stupid advice. Yes a safe is only a delaying device, as is the door on your car, but would you be without it.

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Originally Posted by Pineapple

Can I ask what you class as "pathetic a-cat security"?

Im not having a dig but am genuinely curious. When organising the security of my firearms I took it very serious and would like to think others do too. While i dont have an e-cat safe (cost was prohibitive) I would like to think I have done what I can to avoid being part of the problem.

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Anything that entry can be gained with only basic hand tools in little time. Cables and chains around rafters and cylinders are a joke.

I've seen many pathetic A-cat approved cabinets which I could access in seconds without any tools, just with a few swift kicks.

I'd like to see E-Cat security as a minimum, it's not overly expensive, but I believe the most important requirement with a safe is how they're fixed, bolted on two faces is a must, or at least bolted on the bottom and large bolty screw thingys on the back, I've seen too many safes been ripped from the floor with a crowbar or no tools even. I've even ripped one out myself with a hooligan bar, took less than thirty seconds.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Do you really feel an E cat gun is any more deadly than an A cat gun?

I know you mean well, but this is part of the issue, we accept their horrible made up definitions and classes as fact and as if they make sense....

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I do, there's a reason the army uses the Steyr over the Tikka T3.

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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

One thing for sure is that more and more criminals are using firearms.

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Is that really 'for sure' though? Based on what data? Or is it just a throwaway line trotted out by the media (and that goon from the police union) to drum up reactions without any supporting evidence?