Thread: One up the spout

Not a good practice to have the bolt closed with the striker down on a live round but the degree of danger depends on the amount of exposure of the striker at the rear of the bolt in the event of a knock or fall. I prefer the following;

1. Muzzle ALWAYS in a safe direction. 2. Half-open bolt on a chambered round. 3, Next safest is bolt closed and safety catch applied (only if proven to be a good design in proper working order.

The person with a chambered round is in a position where they can expect to see game, and in a group ONLY the lead person has the chambered round. Sadly, the most unreliable safety mechanism is the nut behind the butt!

i prefer to trust a mechanical device that is in good working order than hoping some numpty holds the bolt half open and keeps his booger hooker off the trigger. only a few rifles are able to have half cock bolt locks but this is not really safer than just having the bolt closed with safety on as many rifles will fire when the trigger is pulled with the bolt halfway up. i feel like a lot of NZ "rules" are created from issues with the old lee enfield and by the Tikka T3 being one of the few rifles with a decent half cock bolt handle notch.

1. Muzzle ALWAYS in a safe direction is pretty much the main one for me.

When Im hunting with someone and I hear the click of an action my hair stands on end. Even with people I totally trust.
Choose who you hunt with wisely and with new people always have a conversation about safety protocols.

Personally I don't trust half cock or half open and only go to that mode if I'm in front and absolutely sure a shot is imminent. Far better to let a deer run than have an accident.

Greetings All,
After reading the posts in this thread I thought I should check exactly what is in the Arms Code these days.
In the short description of the rule the code calls for a bolt closed on an empty chamber when close to game. Further on it allows for a half open bolt, where the bolt handle is up and drawn back part way and the round partly chambered, when close to game. It then states if this is not possible then an empty chamber should be used. In the next paragraph it allows for a previously tested safety to be used on semi auto rifles.
Most of us who have tried to use the half open bolt with a cock on opening action know that the bolt slithers around like a greased eel. Due to this a position where the bolt is fully forward and slightly down (often incorrectly called half cock) has been used. This is not as safe as the half open bolt as it only takes some downward pressure on the bolt handle to have the rifle ready to fire. For this reason it is not condoned by the arms code.
I was a Firearms Safety Insructor in the 1980's and 1990's and tried to have the fully forward and partly down position addressed as it was commonly used at the time. Regrettably I could get no traction and the Arms Code, by default, recommends only the empty chamber for 99% of todays hunting rifles. No bush ninja is going to be satisfied with that.
Regards Grandpamac.

Greetings Again,
Further to my earlier post I thought I would share a little tale. The young stag in the photo was my first deer. Early one Saturday morning, many years ago, I was sneaking up the track above Middle Hill Hut when this chap blundered out of the scrub and stopped broadside on about 10 metres from me. I was likely carrying my rifle in the fully forward and partly down position that I was bagging in my previous post and a very quick shot resulted in a dead deer. Could I have managed the shot from an empty chamber? Unlikely. With a loaded chamber and on safe? Definitely.
As an aside my two non hunting companions carried the deer back to the hut on a pole which meant that no meat was wasted. Later in the day @NIMROD turned up, possibly to show me a few pointers on deer hunting due to my conspicuous lack of success, thanks mate, but I was still fizzing and pretty much useless for that.
Regards Grandpamac.

I used to own a Remington model 7 .308 many many years ago and used to walk around using the so called half cock with my thumb on the bolt ready to drop it if an animal was seen.
Well one day i slipped over my thumb closed the bolt and something touched the trigger, i blew a big hole in the ground, lucky it wasn't in me.
Now i will only use the so called half cock if the rifle allows me to engage the safety as well, this way if that ever happened again the safety is still on. I only do this if in front or hunting alone, otherwise the chamber is empty.

Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

So far there is no conclusive answer to my question 'can the rifle fire with the striker in contact with the primer but without any blow to the cocking piece'
There is a pretty unanimous conclusion that this is not safe or no safer than round chambered and safety on.

Just to clear up this term 'Half cock', with a cock on opening action, as soon as the bolt is lifted the action is 'cocked'. The bolt body is rotated relative to the cocking piece to the cocked position. There is a 'Half open bolt position' as the cocking piece catches in its rotation, some actions having an indent for this. On a 'cock on open' action there is no 'Half cock' position.
If anyone is having trouble with noise chambering a round, try the following: Right handed shooter, bring the fingers of the left hand around the underside of the action until they can apply slight pressure to the case and ride it as the bolt pushes it forward to the chamber. Some actions are noisier than others and some are more difficult to get at like T3's, the quietest are Mauser type actions ( positive feed).

Sadly no rifle is ever the same so different models/makes all work differently and then you have different terrain in which you are hunting. Open areas allows for empty chambers and time to load versus close quarter bush hunting where time is limited and sound of chambering likely to alert the intended species of your presence.

I personally hunt with one up the spout in the bush with muzzle always pointing down, safety on. I use to and was shown "half bolt" was the preferred method, but after a few slips or navigating through tough bush, the bolt has closed on at least 2 occasions I recall in the 12 years I have been hunting like this. It's now 7 years on, and the safety has never been dislodged.

In summary, you should be familiar (remind yourself before every hunt) and test your rifle on which safe practice is most suited to your rifle and style of hunting.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

So far there is no conclusive answer to my question 'can the rifle fire with the striker in contact with the primer but without any blow to the cocking piece'
There is a pretty unanimous conclusion that this is not safe or no safer than round chambered and safety on.

Just to clear up this term 'Half cock', with a cock on opening action, as soon as the bolt is lifted the action is 'cocked'. The bolt body is rotated relative to the cocking piece to the cocked position. There is a 'Half open bolt position' as the cocking piece catches in its rotation, some actions having an indent for this. On a 'cock on open' action there is no 'Half cock' position.
If anyone is having trouble with noise chambering a round, try the following: Right handed shooter, bring the fingers of the left hand around the underside of the action until they can apply slight pressure to the case and ride it as the bolt pushes it forward to the chamber. Some actions are noisier than others and some are more difficult to get at like T3's, the quietest are Mauser type actions ( positive feed).

Greetings @Moa Hunter,
To be clear I am not getting at you over this but the position you describe, with the round almost fully chambered and the bolt fully forward and a little down is NOT the half open bolt position talked about in the Arms Code and to my mind, at least, is unsafe with failures mentioned in the other posts. The Arms Code says as much without coming right out and being clear. It states that if the half open bolt position is unstable with bolt handle raised and drawn half way back (as it is on most cock on opening actions) then the chamber should be carried empty. Not really an option for bush hunting.
Regards Grandpamac.

im generally a empty chamber, if im in the first in line shooter of the group, ill go semi ready, as soon as someone else is about to swap out, un chamber, and he semi ready. but thats only bush stalking. usually we get long distance shots 500m-700m, so complete empty chamber until lined up ready to go.

I primarily hunt using a single shot rifle, so there is always "one up the spout". The rifle has a cocking hammer, but no safety. I hunt alone in the bush with this setup and only cock the rifle just before taking a shot. I'm mindful to deactivate the cocking mechanism if I don't take a shot. It's such a simple system that there isn't much to get confused about, even in the heat of the moment.

Originally Posted by MB

I primarily hunt using a single shot rifle, so there is always "one up the spout". The rifle has a cocking hammer, but no safety. I hunt alone in the bush with this setup and only cock the rifle just before taking a shot. I'm mindful to deactivate the cocking mechanism if I don't take a shot. It's such a simple system that there isn't much to get confused about, even in the heat of the moment.

There is a little Bergara ss in the cupboard so will likely do the same.
GPM.

When I was 16 I had a 8mm Mauser, and the scope didn't allow the original safety to be used so I used to carry it as the op suggests - uncocked and on a loaded chamber.
That was fine until the day I shot a deer, had a quick reload and didn't uncock it after.
I nearly blew my head off climbing out of a creek using the rifle as a walking stick when the trigger caught a bit of exposed root.
The blast from the muzzle was so close I thought I'd shot myself, and losing hearing didn't help my cognitive abilities any.

I strongly recommend not doing it - you'll be fine until you're not.

I think the key learning from this thread is that some NZ hunters will apparently go to great lengths to come up with weird concoctions of action state simply to avoid using a manufacturer designed and approved safety.

I have two states when actively hunting with my bolt action rifles; bolt closed on empty chamber or bolt closed on loaded chamber with safety on. The second state is never when behind someone and no matter what state the rifle always pointed in a safe direction.

My opinion is all of these weird variations of half closed bolts etc. provide no additional safety and in many instances are more unsafe than simply using a safety. Should you rely on a safety? No but I know for certain it's been tested and designed better than something the manufacturer doesn't recommend, nor have they designed or tested. I also question why some gunsmiths in NZ have modified things like Tikkas just so people can use these strange versions of action state, I suspect market demand based on some weird hangover we all seem to have from our forebears hunting with .303s that had half cocks.

In saying this not all safeties are the same either. I much prefer those safeties that directly action on the sear and firing pin to hold back and retain the firing pin than those that simply block the trigger.

When will I use a half cock?
With my Uberti 1873 lever action, Pedersoli Sharps 1874, and my Lee Enfield No4 that all have an action with a designed and manufactured half cock.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

I have round chambered and bolt open /not closed... in 40 years of hunting Ive never had a bolt close unintentionally but have lost a few rounds as it came open... external hammer guns are easy,as is the internal hammer bakails it works the same way.....uncock hammer until shot is going to be taken.

Unfortunately I have had a open bolt close unintentionally so I use discretion when I am hunting- the situation is variable so my methods change to match. Rifle is normally carried empty chamber and closed. If I get into a situation where I may need to make a fast decision, I put one up the spout, push the bolt forward and hold the bolt up/ forward with my thumb above the handle and the palm / fingers around the trigger guard (same position if you were about to load / close the bolt quietly) . If I need to cock and fire I close the bolt as I move the hand downwards to the trigger. But if there is a round in the chamber, I am either physically holding the bolt up or I am about to fire. A lot of time stalking rabbits was where I learnt to carry a BA in that manner and it has carried across to centrefires.

The situation I had as I was stalking some goats on cleared forestry. I was traversing what I though was loose clay but was a layer of clay over pine slash. I went through on one leg falling forwards and the rifle went into the slash butt first as my arms were wrench back by branches. As I lifted the rifle back up, I spotted the bolt had been pushed shut and on closer inspection it had been pushed closed and was in a cocked position and had a chambered round from the magazine.

Hence now closed on empty until I am ready to 'get personal". I would rather lose a possible chance at an animal than any of the alternatives that could come to pass.