Thread: Police shoot at car after high-speed rampage across Auckland

Originally Posted by 308

What was wrong with shotguns anyway? I thought they were a good idea

What will happen when the bad guy is more than about 15m away?

Even if the sights are right on the centre of a human sized target, there's no way to guarantee a pellet or three from a load of buckshot won't miss the target.
Where do they end up? In a wall? In a passerby's chest?

Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid. Far too much danger to other people.

Not to mention some of the cops I've seen recently would get knocked on their arse by a shotgun.

Originally Posted by systolic

What will happen when the bad guy is more than about 15m away?

Even if the sights are right on the centre of a human sized target, there's no way to guarantee a pellet or three from a load of buckshot won't miss the target.
Where do they end up? In a wall? In a passerby's chest?

Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid. Far too much danger to other people.

Not to mention some of the cops I've seen recently would get knocked on their arse by a shotgun.

I tend to agree, but the police in the USA seem to like ye olde shottie, they must have some reasons for that outside of highway duck shooting?

Originally Posted by Tommy

I tend to agree, but the police in the USA seem to like ye olde shottie, they must have some reasons for that outside of highway duck shooting?

Rubber bullets in a shotty will stop someone without killing them which greatly reduces paperwork

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Rubber bullets in a shotty will stop someone without killing them which greatly reduces paperwork

In summer they sting at best, at worst they bounce of clothing in winter.

Shotties work really well to stop vehicles. They also open house doors very well.

People shot with No 5 shot will feel intense pain and almost immediately lose the will to fight whilst not being lethal unless they're shot in the chest or face at close range. They certainly aren't going to kill anyone at 20m unless they have been "tampered" with prior to loading.

I personally recommend SSG for vehicles and No 5 or No 7 for people and doors.

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Rubber bullets in a shotty will stop someone without killing them which greatly increases paperwork

Fixed.

Originally Posted by systolic

What will happen when the bad guy is more than about 15m away?

Even if the sights are right on the centre of a human sized target, there's no way to guarantee a pellet or three from a load of buckshot won't miss the target.
Where do they end up? In a wall? In a passerby's chest?

Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid. Far too much danger to other people.

Not to mention some of the cops I've seen recently would get knocked on their arse by a shotgun.

On the face of it, yes, but then you have a much better idea about a safe firing zone when you are using a shotgun. Less so with rifles since their bullets will go wayyyy beyond what your eyes see.

Once you contemplate short distances usually involved and the horrific potential lethal range of a stray rifle round -- either an arc several kilometres long, or through nearby house walls, courier vans, windows, trees, fences -- then the shotgun suddenly seems a good choice for police work. Did not say better, just good.

Originally Posted by Cordite

On the face of it, yes, but then you have a much better idea about a safe firing zone when you are using a shotgun. Less so with rifles since their bullets will go wayyyy beyond what your eyes see.

Once you contemplate short distances usually involved and the horrific potential lethal range of a stray rifle round -- either an arc several kilometres long, or through nearby house walls, courier vans, windows, trees, fences -- then the shotgun suddenly seems a good choice for police work. Did not say better, just good.

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

Originally Posted by systolic

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

Dont think anyone has?
I think the whole idea behind police using shotguns would be to use fairly light shot that would only be lethal for a short distance? Smaller pellets are going to loose energy as soon as they hit anything whereas a stray or ricocheting .223 round is gonna be a hell of a lot more dangerous.
I sure as hell know what i would rather be using if i where in that position and it aint an AR.

Originally Posted by systolic

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

By slipping some solids in there and testing whether he confused cover for concealment

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by systolic

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

If I were a cop, Id want a pistol, a dog, a shotgun and an ar15.
AND some bloody good/regular training to go with it all.

Use the correct tool for the job if time allows.
If the cops are not trained and kept up to a decent standard I vote they get wooden battons and mace.
No guns for amateurs on patrol.

Originally Posted by 40mm

If I were a cop, Id want a pistol, a dog, a shotgun and an ar15.
AND some bloody good/regular training to go with it all.

Use the correct tool for the job if time allows.
If the cops are not trained and kept up to a decent standard I vote they get wooden battons and mace.
No guns for amateurs on patrol.

That is the problem right? I would want all that stuff too. Cops see a different world. Their world is one where everyone is a criminal. You don't want them to project their world view onto the rest of us.

You can beat the ever loving shit out of a crackhead and it won't make a scrap of difference. You have to break bits off them before you will incapacitate them.

Our cops are going to end up weird doing that all day.

Originally Posted by systolic

What will happen when the bad guy is more than about 15m away?

Even if the sights are right on the centre of a human sized target, there's no way to guarantee a pellet or three from a load of buckshot won't miss the target.
Where do they end up? In a wall? In a passerby's chest?

Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid. Far too much danger to other people.

Not to mention some of the cops I've seen recently would get knocked on their arse by a shotgun.

If you're ever faced by a riot crowd intent on killing you, pillaging, burning every thing in site and relieving you of your arms, you'll wish that you had TWO shotguns.

Originally Posted by outlander

If you're ever faced by a riot crowd intent on killing you, pillaging, burning every thing in site and relieving you of your arms, you'll wish that you had TWO shotguns.

Do the cops in this country have that often?

Originally Posted by systolic

Do the cops in this country have that often?

'Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid'. I didn't realize that you were been NZ specific on this. It's a big World out there.

Originally Posted by outlander

'Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid'. I didn't realize that you were been NZ specific on this. It's a big World out there.

Well this chase happened in Auckland. So yes, I was being NZ specific. Although shotguns for police are fucking stupid in most places (other than places where you can simply shoot people for no apparent reason. Especially if they're a young black man).