Thread: Police shoot at car after high-speed rampage across Auckland

Originally Posted by Cordite

On the face of it, yes, but then you have a much better idea about a safe firing zone when you are using a shotgun. Less so with rifles since their bullets will go wayyyy beyond what your eyes see.

Once you contemplate short distances usually involved and the horrific potential lethal range of a stray rifle round -- either an arc several kilometres long, or through nearby house walls, courier vans, windows, trees, fences -- then the shotgun suddenly seems a good choice for police work. Did not say better, just good.

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

Originally Posted by systolic

Do the cops in this country have that often?

'Shotguns for police use are fucking stupid'. I didn't realize that you were been NZ specific on this. It's a big World out there.

Originally Posted by systolic

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

Dont think anyone has?
I think the whole idea behind police using shotguns would be to use fairly light shot that would only be lethal for a short distance? Smaller pellets are going to loose energy as soon as they hit anything whereas a stray or ricocheting .223 round is gonna be a hell of a lot more dangerous.
I sure as hell know what i would rather be using if i where in that position and it aint an AR.

Originally Posted by systolic

So why the hell would people be advocating letting 9 or 12 pellets of 00 buckshot go at a time when there is this horrific potential of stray rounds?

Surely any 00 buck pellets that miss their targets are stray rounds too? They can still kill anyone within a few hundred metres. Not as far as a rifle round, but still fucking dangerous. And as I said before, even if the sights are on the centre of the target, beyond about 15 metres you can't guarantee some pellets won't miss and potentially kill someone else.

What happens if the bad guy is 100 metres away with a rifle? How is a cop with a shotgun and 00 buckshot going to have any chance of hitting them?

By slipping some solids in there and testing whether he confused cover for concealment

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have a mate who was ex paras in the belfast era -he reckoned a penny slipped into the base of a rubber baton round was very effective -specially if richocetted off the cobbles -ya should see em dance !
aside from that when NZ Defence took delivery of their latest combat shotties im sure i read they also were contemplating purchasing a supply of bean bag sub lethal rounds,which if literature is to be believed are very effective swhen social workers and do gooders fail!
It said nought about undertakers frustration at missing out on another customer!

Originally Posted by systolic

Do the cops in this country have that often?

I can think of three instances in the western bop over the last couple years. Last one was in a marae car park in welcome bay where a fleeing driver had tried to ditch vehicle and run. They got him, but then had to fight their way out of a feral mob that erupted from the marae, pepper spray and tasers to fight off a mob... fuck that

Originally Posted by kotuku

have a mate who was ex paras in the belfast era -he reckoned a penny slipped into the base of a rubber baton round was very effective -specially if richocetted off the cobbles -ya should see em dance !
aside from that when NZ Defence took delivery of their latest combat shotties im sure i read they also were contemplating purchasing a supply of bean bag sub lethal rounds,which if literature is to be believed are very effective swhen social workers and do gooders fail!
It said nought about undertakers frustration at missing out on another customer!

Far be it that I would even contemplate doing this...but it has been found that a D size battery fits really well into a 40mm stopper gun cartridge. Chuck the rubber bullet out and hey, presto...

shotguns have been used in law enforcement since time began..... a double barrel shotgun pointed at you is VERY effective at screwing with your head as it LOOKS like two big bulgy eyes..so it has personatlity/phyco type effect.....modern thinking with pump actions is the "noise factor" of racking a round (increased by hollywood,count how many times these get pumped without fired lol) sort of tells bad guy/scum sucking moron the game is up.
as for how effective they are....give me a load of #BBs any day of the week and at sub 50 yards I would back myself to be very effective. yes #00 buck is piss poor beyond 30 yards UNLESS you have done your homework and patterned and repatterned and played with choks etc etc etc to find what works in that particular gun #7 buck is another good option.....they tell me at close range (read indoors) a load of #9s is as good as anything else with stuff all chance of a stray pellet going where it shouldnt.
ram the cars off the road using railway iron fitted cop cars ,works for boy racers too,one airbags have gone off they could even just drive away....save paperwork. we live in a PC gone mad world and the cops have thier hands tied,smart arsed little pricks whos daddy has loads of $$$$$ and lawyers have stuffed the justice system and the bra burning cardigan wearers have dumbed the rest down to level that just doesnt work anymore..shootem all and let God sort it out.

Originally Posted by systolic

Do the cops in this country have that often?

I think @outlander was drawing attention to the well-known intimidation factor of the shotgun.

If a big enough crowd wants to get you they can, only intimidation (or running!) can save your skin in that case.

Zombies are of course scary for that precise reason, they don't get intimidated by a few of their fellows up front getting blasted and just keep coming... slowly... gaawk!!!

The .223 AR is said to be good for police work because it is safe, the bullets hit someone expand and don't travel much further, .223 ricochets are less dangerous too than say .30 ones. But this is essentially an either-or predicated on PC Plod being a good shot who hits what he aims at, and that is not guaranteed by scoping his rifle. If he misses, the .223 can cause mayhem, far away and through walls, etc. Add that he is issued a semi-auto rifle, and he will let off five shots at least to make sure he hits, which creates one VERY unsafe zone far behind his target. A safe firing zone is just one big headache for police use in populated areas, not a problem in the bush or on a range. Therefore semi auto centrefire rifles should not be carried routinely in patrol cars, SGs are more appropriate for this, including beyond 15 metres.

https://www.policeone.com/police-pro...t-Intimidator/

I don't see the point of shooting at a car with a 9mm it is not going to disable it unless the driver is head shot then we have an out of control 2 tonne missile
the odds of one of our Police officers making a head shot on a moving target is worse than wining LOTTO I hope the cowboy that took the shot was been
reprimanded they are not trained to shoot at moving targets the dog incident proved that even if they did train it is still a stupid thing to do in a built area

Scatterguns are used in urban situations (with suitable ammo) as there is a lot less danger of a stray round going through a wall into another room. Also, I would imagine they look a lot more intimidating than a Glock when attempting to get an offender to stand down.

Originally Posted by Growlybear

Scatterguns are used in urban situations (with suitable ammo) as there is a lot less danger of a stray round going through a wall into another room. Also, I would imagine they look a lot more intimidating than a Glock when attempting to get an offender to stand down.

As for scattering, SGs are not that inaccurate at close range, don't scatter super much. Due to their length they are more practically accurate than a pistol, especially in poor light where you can't see your sights.

Was going to add something about the intimidating sound effects of the shotgun, but can't remember what it was. It's racking me.

Originally Posted by shooternz

I don't see the point of shooting at a car with a 9mm it is not going to disable it unless the driver is head shot then we have an out of control 2 tonne missile
the odds of one of our Police officers making a head shot on a moving target is worse than wining LOTTO I hope the cowboy that took the shot was been
reprimanded they are not trained to shoot at moving targets the dog incident proved that even if they did train it is still a stupid thing to do in a built area

I know of one instance when a 14 year old driver on the run got put in a wheelchair by .30ACP FMJ courtesy of a police Walther PP. Direct hit on his spine somewhere below neck. I doubt the shooter felt lucky, but like you say, not a certain shot to take, and safe firing zone is literally out of the window.

Anyway, the two ton missile we are talking about here was arguably already out control. As the song goes, sometimes it's hard to be a copman.

Originally Posted by Cordite

I think @outlander was drawing attention to the well-known intimidation factor of the shotgun.

If a big enough crowd wants to get you they can, only intimidation (or running!) can save your skin in that case.

Zombies are of course scary for that precise reason, they don't get intimidated by a few of their fellows up front getting blasted and just keep coming... slowly... gaawk!!!

The .223 AR is said to be good for police work because it is safe, the bullets hit someone expand and don't travel much further, .223 ricochets are less dangerous too than say .30 ones. But this is essentially an either-or predicated on PC Plod being a good shot who hits what he aims at, and that is not guaranteed by scoping his rifle. If he misses, the .223 can cause mayhem, far away and through walls, etc. Add that he is issued a semi-auto rifle, and he will let off five shots at least to make sure he hits, which creates one VERY unsafe zone far behind his target. A safe firing zone is just one big headache for police use in populated areas, not a problem in the bush or on a range. Therefore semi auto centrefire rifles should not be carried routinely in patrol cars, SGs are more appropriate for this, including beyond 15 metres.

https://www.policeone.com/police-pro...t-Intimidator/

The only thing that intimidated the riots we faced were Caspers (20 crew armoured vehicles). A shotgun was just another 'gun'. Running away was never an option for either the army or the police and to my knowledge it never happened.

Originally Posted by Cordite

As for scattering, SGs are not that inaccurate at close range, don't scatter super much. Due to their length they are more practically accurate than a pistol, especially in poor light where you can't see your sights.

Was going to add something about the intimidating sound effects of the shotgun, but can't remember what it was. It's racking me.

oh ho I see what youve done there...very "punny"