Thread: This question again

So I've just had the meeting with the vetting officer for my FAL renewal, which I thing went well all but my security
I know this gets talked about on here all the time but cant find exactly what I want when it come to security.

I have a room of "stout construction" in which I store my firearms and also in that room I have a lockable cupboard for my ammo, which I believe is adequate under the arms code?
I have now been told this is not up to standard and HAVE to remove all bolts and store separately (I have no problem with this) and have a chain running through the firearms (I have a problem with this). In my reading of the arms code I can't see where this is a requirement.

•A firearm must not be put in any place where a child has ready access to it. Achieved
•Ammunition must be stored separately or the firearm made incapable of firing. •If possible, remove the bolt and magazine and lock away separately from the firearm. Achieved
•Make sure both the chamber and the magazine are empty. Achieved
•For lever, pump or semi-automatic firearms, you may not be able to remove the action. Break-open types can be dismantled. N/A
•Trigger-locking devices are recommended for firearms which cannot be taken apart. N/A

•Licence holders must take reasonable steps to secure firearms against theft. These steps include:
•Locking your firearm away in: •A lockable cabinet, container or receptacle of ‘stout construction’ i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access. Putting a lock on a cupboard, wardrobe or gun-case is not enough. Achieved
•Generally, the cabinet/container must be used for storing firearms only. Achieved
•A display cabinet or rack which locks in and immobilises firearms so they can not be fired. N/A
•A steel and concrete strong-room.

•Unloading and locking your firearm away whenever it is not in use or not under the immediate supervision of a licence holder.
•Never leaving your firearm in an unattended vehicle.

So I'm struggling to see where I have gone wrong or am I missing something?

I can't see that your doing anything wrong, these story's of the inspectors making things up keep coming up.
What area are you in?
Maybe email Wellington for a final word on it?

I would print off exactly what you have posted, and ask your officer very politely, to explain where they see a problem.

Originally Posted by Pengy

I would print off exactly what you have posted, and ask your officer very politely, to explain where they see a problem.

+1

Stand your ground in a polite and professional manor and you will be surprised with their reaction. It is the same when I get the occasional visit and am told that he has to take a copy of all my weapons serial numbers... I just say polity "no thanks, I keep my own record", there is an awkward pause but we move on. It just annoys me how many people have been "bullied" in to giving serial numbers or changing security based upon opinion.

Originally Posted by Shooter

+1

Stand your ground in a polite and professional manor and you will be surprised with their reaction. It is the same when I get the occasional visit and am told that he has to take a copy of all my weapons serial numbers... I just say polity "no thanks, I keep my own record", there is an awkward pause but we move on. It just annoys me how many people have been "bullied" in to giving serial numbers or changing security based upon opinion.

I had this last time too (just this year). I just politly asked for the vetter to get the AO to contact me / or write to me and show me a copy of the legistlation requiring this then I would be happy to comply. Vetter mumbled about it "might be bad look" for my renewal but no one wrote/phoned me and licence was issued

Yep have a chat with the local AO rather than the vetter.
Sooner rather than later too. I am not sure how the new AO views thing but the former ones had big "common sense' genes
My rifles are stored in a safe with bolts in.

From what I read you're saying that instead of a lockable cabinet, container or receptacle you have a room of stout construction? If this is correct, does the room have windows that are secured (barred) against entry, a quality security rated lock on the door or doors which have hinges with pins that can't be removed from the outside? Or, if your room doesn't meet these requirements, is your chain that runs through the trigger guard of your firearms, secured to the building in a secure manner?

Presumably you are referring to "A" category firearms.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

From what I read you're saying that instead of a lockable cabinet, container or receptacle you have a room of stout construction? If this is correct, does the room have windows that are secured (barred) against entry, a quality security rated lock on the door or doors which have hinges with pins that can't be removed from the outside? Or, if your room doesn't meet these requirements, is your chain that runs through the trigger guard of your firearms, secured to the building in a secure manner?

Presumably you are referring to "A" category firearms.

This is regarding A cat only.
Yes I have a room of Stout construction, No windows, security rated lock, hinges that can not be accessed, solid core door.
Not forgetting the code only states: ‘stout construction’ i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access.

There is no legal requirement to have your "A" category firearm serial numbers recorded. It is however, advantageous to record them yourself for insurance purposes etc.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

There is no legal requirement to have your "A" category firearm serial numbers recorded.

Your right there, never stops them trying their luck though.

Originally Posted by 10-Ring

There is no legal requirement to have your "A" category firearm serial numbers recorded. It is however, advantageous to record them yourself for insurance purposes etc.

Correct, they are just trying it on - maybe hidden agenda? Joe Green clarified that issue some time ago, there is no requirement for them to record serial numbers.

The AO up here gives an addendum of what he wants with the code when you renew your licence, I did mine at the beginning of last month, my "safe" is an old rolex panel steel cabinet ex IRD! I burnt all the files bolted to the wall, it has a roller door with one modified locking pin at the bottom, with a good quality tumbler lock. The vetter was more than happy. I sold some ammo on t/me the other day, get a text from the purchaser wanting my full name and address! Said you have my FAL that's all your getting, get the lazy AO to check my details in the computer, AO wouldn't sign the form without me giving a stranger my details. Sale didn't go thru, rang my local AO and told him I wasn't happy, he replied that's the only way I would get it thru, no worries as the other person would be ok because he also had a FAL? All the worry of security and I have to give details of myself and where I live to a stranger, I'll make a point of not going thru with sales if this is the case. Others never ask for my details but the form comes through? Time to tell these buggers they don't make the law, there is a law in place, but seems everyone is scared to upset them?

Is your room a strong room? Or is it just an ordinary room with a lock on the door? You seem to have chop and changed the wording to suit.

Just buy a safe and be done with it. I take the security of my firearms seriously, not just as a hurdle to keeping my licence hence buying an E-cat safe when all I need is a crappy chain bolted to the wall.

Originally Posted by Savage1

Is your room a strong room? Or is it just an ordinary room with a lock on the door? You seem to have chop and changed the wording to suit.

Just buy a safe and be done with it. I take the security of my firearms seriously, not just as a hurdle to keeping my licence hence buying an E-cat safe when all I need is a crappy chain bolted to the wall.

The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!

Originally Posted by Maca49

The point being there is a law covering it. It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law, it's a bloody disgrace that the police carry on like this. Makes us all look muppets, I realise the job ain't easy when your dealing with such a diversity of people and it must be a challenge, but at least follow the law!

The question Savage1 asked is perfectly logical and yet to be answered by the OP. I think you're getting a little dramatic with, "It seems every AO has his own agenda outside the law". Some Arms Officer's may like the idea of recording serial numbers but I've never heard of any that insisted on it.

Regarding the firearms vettor's interpretation of what is, "A lockable cabinet, container or receptacle of ‘stout construction’ i.e. strong enough to stop a child or casual opportunist thief getting access". This is always going to be open to some interpretation. I would suggest that if anyone's current 'A' cat security has been declined as not having met the requirements and they think that it does, then discuss it in a calm and reasonable manner with the vettor and or their AO. It would make the firearm vettor's job a lot easier if the wording of the law was more specific in this regard such as it is for 'E' and 'B' category security requirements. Would the 'A' category firearms licence holder prefer a more specific and clearly defined law pertaining to this? By that I mean, a requirement for example, gun racks and strong rooms aside, that all 'A' cat gun cabinets or receptacles MUST be constructed of at least 2mm thick mild steel with a door of no less thickness than 3mm mild steel, securely bolted to the wall and the floor etc. This would surely upset the many thousands of 'A' cat FAL holder's who have various wooden and thin walled steel cabinets currently use. Even so, personally, I think the law needs to be more specific on this.

Regarding the sale of firearms and ammunition by mail order, TM etc. This has increased dramatically in recent years and obviously some variation in what is required by your local AO may exist. If you have a difference of opinion with your local AO on this and you're sure that you're right then discuss it in a calm and polite manner.

The police are there to help you. Overall, they do a fantastic job under often difficult circumstances.