Thread: Question: Retaining a licence with no firearms but without secure storage facilities

Interested to hear on any updates following on from this thread in 2022 please:

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....nt-flat-87042/

I've been made aware of a forum member where the advice from the FSA is that his existing licence now needs to be surrendered, part–way through the licence period, because he is in a temporary flatting situation where it is impractical to install the security measures that he has in place at the family home and present when the licence was approved and issued. He has no firearms in his name or on-site, only using firearms when he returns home. Other family members are licenced and hold the firearms in their names securely at the home address.

I have confirmed with the FSA that this advice is based on the Arms Regulations 1992. Only the sections relevant to this forum member's situation are copied below:

Arms Regulations 1992, Clause 19: Conditions relating to security precautions

(1c) the holder must take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in their possession is secured against theft:

(2) The reasonable steps required by subclause (1)(c) are—
keeping on the holder’s premises—
(2)(a)i a lockable cabinet, container, or receptacle of stout construction in which firearms may be stored; or
(2)(a)iii a lockable display cabinet or rack in which firearms are immobilised so that none of them may be fired; and
(2)(b) securely fixing to the premises all locked cabinets, containers, racks, and receptacles in which firearms are stored; and

(3) The steps taken under subclause (2) must be approved by a member of the Police following an inspection carried out—
(3)(a) at the time the holder’s firearms licence is issued (or renewed); or
(3)(b) during an inspection under section 24B of the Act


Arms Regulations 1992, Clause 24B: General conditions of firearms licence

(1) Every firearms licence is subject to the conditions that the holder of a firearms licence must,—
(1)(c) permit a member of the Police to inspect the place or places where the firearms are or will be kept, and the place or places where the ammunition is or will be kept, and, for those purposes, to enter at all reasonable times upon the premises where that place or those places are situated.

Also
Arms Legislation Act 2022, Clause 55:
A holder of a firearms licence who changes their address must, within 30 days after doing so, give written notice of the change to a member of the Police.

From what I understand of the above, following receiving notification of a change of address, Police may choose to arrange an inspection of the security or they may not, but either way security that meet the above must be in place.
I'm interested in the padlocked chain placed around a secure fixture such as the hot water cylinder mentioned in the previous thread as being (perhaps not universally) accepted as sufficient security. Presumably this was accepted when there were no firearms currently at the place of residence, and that should any firearms be stored on-site in the future, they would have arrived in their own pelican case or similar that meets the secure container requirement of (2)(a)i above, and that by chaining such a container in place the requirements of (2)(b) are then also met.

Either way the opportunity to contribute to the re-write of the Arms Act is timely, and I'll put in a submission along the lines that this area could be tidied up. Cancelling and then reapplying for a licence in these circumstances seems a needless waste of resources.

If you consider that the FSA website has a video of how to store a firearm in the roof cavity, a chain or cable lock around a sound structure in an inconspicuous place should pass.
I know of a case where the son lives in town and stores his firearms at his parents farm an hour away, as he only ever uses them there.
I'm not sure if he has secure storage facilities in town though.

What is also confusing here is what actually constitutes a change of address?

If he is living in a Halls of Residence type situation during the term for learning but then returning home and having most of his possessions at the home, retains that address as his 'address for service' - has his address actually changed in the eyes of the law?

Similarly, if someone lives at home Sat/Sun but travels to a different area Mon/Fri for work, do they need security at both addresses or is one the 'address for service'? Also, someone who is retired, travels around the country in a motor home but retains a home address.

For the purposes of the Arms Act, the assessment appears to be that the address for Arms Act purposes is considered to be the address of the property where the licence holder is currently residing temporarily or otherwise. If it is a temporary address, and then returning to the previous address where security is approved - has the licence holder actually changed their address?

The chained to a stout bit of the house thing is another interesting one, as the section above doesn't specifically rule it out but also doesn't expressly rule it in in terms of a rack or container securely fixed to the premises...

A couple of points, here.

"Arms Regulations 1992, Clause 19: Conditions relating to security precautions

(1c) the holder must take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in their possession is secured against theft:".

Why is there an assumption that the holder of a firearms licence actually owns a firearm?
Surely, a firearms licence is issued to a "fit and proper" person, so that that person MAY use a firearm without the requirement for immediate/one-on-one supervision?
In the same way as a person can be tested for competence and issued with a licence to drive a motor vehicle. It is NOT a requirement to own a vehicle.

Remember to make your submission for consideration during the re-write of the Arms Act.
There are too many conflicts, and anomaly's, such as this.

That is an interesting point, if I was to make a guess I would say it's a management decision made many years ago that it's just easier for the arms regime management - to simply consider all firearms licence holders as 'in possession' of arms items requiring secure storage as per the act and assessing security as such at the time of vetting (a money and labour saving decision, not a 'compliance' one).

The way that is worded, would appear to align with what you are suggesting in that not every firearms licence holder needs compliant security if they currently aren't in possession of arms items. The security requirements only kick in if the licence holder takes possession of arms items.

Interesting point.

Just had 4 months travelling in a caravan, had secure storage in it signed off. So just rang and the girl put a note on my file with no rifle at home address. I rang back couple of days later and asked if any note on my file to confirm. All was good.

I know someone who was studying at uni and kept his guns at the parents alongside their guns, since thats the only place he was using them, and the same story was he had to install a safe in his flat, even though it was kept empty.

Surely the register will tell them if you actually have firearms?? I asked the vetting guy last time about the safe thing. He said if tou have a firearms licence you have to have a safe where you live weather you store firearms there or not. I guess the thinking goes if you own firearms your bound to have them at your house at some point..

Thanks for the contributions so far.

Here is a link to the short video mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD63CM8UHYA
and on Page 6 of the Storage and Transportation Guide is the full description of the padlocked cable method for securing a single firearm.
https://www.firearmssafetyauthority....e-guidance.pdf

Know of Military personal who cannot store their personal firearms on base, allowed to be secured at friends property.

I would still be interested to know the answer if you spend your time at two addresses - do you need security at both addresses or how do they pick which is the 'home' and which is the 'away'?

Originally Posted by blip

Surely the register will tell them if you actually have firearms?? I asked the vetting guy last time about the safe thing. He said if tou have a firearms licence you have to have a safe where you live weather you store firearms there or not. I guess the thinking goes if you own firearms your bound to have them at your house at some point..

I basically had the above explained to me nearly 20 years ago. The scenario was given that if I came home late one night from spotlighting and was locked out of mum/dads house, I was obliged to have a storage at my own residence in the event I end up going there without dropping off my firearm.

Yes plenty of people only use their firearms at the place they store them but might not live, but there will be others that store offsite and shoot somewhere else. Given enough time, sooner or later, someone will bring their firearm home.

So the law caters to the lowest denomination, which is that scenario. Otherwise you need two separate options within the law, one that says you must have storage at your home regardless of whether it contains anything, and another option which says you don’t need storage at home if you only shoot at xyz farm/range where firearms are stored.
Then it starts to get more complicated than having a token chain and padlock in the ceiling which never gets used until it does get used.

Originally Posted by No.3

I would still be interested to know the answer if you spend your time at two addresses - do you need security at both addresses or how do they pick which is the 'home' and which is the 'away'?

Depends if firearms are stored at both locations.

Originally Posted by longshot

Depends if firearms are stored at both locations.

Not according to what is stated above though, as the OP's situation the person was in temporary accommodation but still needed security without firearms based on the fact that as a licenced person he might have firearms... It's somewhat blurry now as what is the cut off is, especially in the situation of military living on base and having to store the firearms at another address???

I think the argument is that as the holder of a license, at any point you could buy or otherwise take possession of an arm - and so need storage.
It would seem to me that at that point you have obligations - but not until that point.
Fit and proper and all - so as a fit and proper person I'll make sure any arms in my possession are safely stored. Until then, I don't need to.