Registry to stay??

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Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

@308 the problem is we already know of some cases where firearms are being stolen from collections by criminals. It's not news. Every time I pull the trigger I have it in the back of my mind that some of the nastiest Mongrel Mob guys in the country are living within 5km of me and can likely hear me and know where the guns are. So far it hasn't been a problem but one day it might be. The register does not make me any less safe I think.

Once the media get hold of the first story about registered firearms being stolen to order, or police finding masses of never registered firearms in criminal hands, the blame has to go away from us.

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Media won't push it even if they do get hold of it. Doesn't suit the agendas and reality that the agenda is impossible isn't their problem... Firearms have been inserted into what is currently labelled "toxic" along with anything else that might possibly be 'more male' than the groupthink approves of. It's by far easier to stand back and chuck rocks and blame than do anything constructive.

Police are just as guilty of this as well, by blaming all the failures and breaches on the lack of a registry. Now that it exists the crime stats are not changing that I can find. Another shooting in Fort St, at least the registration details will let them know where the gun came from :ORLY:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

@308 the problem is we already know of some cases where firearms are being stolen from collections by criminals. It's not news. Every time I pull the trigger I have it in the back of my mind that some of the nastiest Mongrel Mob guys in the country are living within 5km of me and can likely hear me and know where the guns are. So far it hasn't been a problem but one day it might be. The register does not make me any less safe I think.

Once the media get hold of the first story about registered firearms being stolen to order, or police finding masses of never registered firearms in criminal hands, the blame has to go away from us.

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It won't, it will get spun, the police will be faultless and we will continue to be the problem.

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Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

@308 the problem is we already know of some cases where firearms are being stolen from collections by criminals. It's not news. Every time I pull the trigger I have it in the back of my mind that some of the nastiest Mongrel Mob guys in the country are living within 5km of me and can likely hear me and know where the guns are. So far it hasn't been a problem but one day it might be. The register does not make me any less safe I think.

Once the media get hold of the first story about registered firearms being stolen to order, or police finding masses of never registered firearms in criminal hands, the blame has to go away from us.

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Good and fair point but I fear that the truth will be somewhat obscured by a Daily Mail style PR wave of lies
Once the government (any government) has decided to build something like the register it takes on a momentum of its own - people have budgets to spend, quotas to fill, jobs to protect

I am put in mind of the famous quote from Robocop-

Dick Jones: I had a guaranteed military sale with ED209! Renovation program! Spare parts for 25 years! Who cares if it worked or not!

It is difficult for a bureaucracy to admit that it has made an assumption error and go back to the drawing board. Twinning that drive with the fact that it is hard for the minds of government people to say something like"You know what? we actually want less control over and information on our citizens. Let them have more personal freedom"

I doubt that we will be able to flush the turd that is the register (although I will not stop arguing for it to be so)

I note grimly that given that streak of piss's actions against innocent Muslims in Chch two points seem to have been ignored
1) "lone wolf" style attacks are almost impossible to defend against
2) Tarrant armed himself with the help of incompetent staff in the vetting office not doing sufficient background checks into his referees - surely there should have been a boost in funding and training for back office police staff to stop this happening again?

The register is a politically driven idea that is almost completely pointless and arose from the desire for some of these poll-driven fruitcakes to be seen to be doing something

Perhaps a cartoon is appropriate
Attachment 273799

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Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

From the perspective of someone wanting wider semi auto access, I see political advantages in keeping the register. We all know that criminals are importing drugs, guns etc regularly. If we get wider access to semi autos and maintain a register of all legal firearms then comparing criminal use to legal use will be easier. Even Cahill might have difficulty blaming licensed shooters for crimes once the register is fully implemented, and unlicensed firearms alone are turning up in crime stats.

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On the last sentence - you underestimate his lack of shame, I think. We've had a handgun register since forever and he still tut-tuts whenever Police recover pistols from crims. To be fair, most are toys/airsoft/blank-firing and not actual handguns.

There are 2 bits of evidence that support what Ben writes here, that I see:

a) E-category worked. We have decades of evidence of this. The anti-gun types know that too so they avoid the subject (and it met nearly all the things they actually say they want, just not the things they wont say). Word is even Police knew it in 2019 and expected it to be retained. So getting it back should be a focus.

b) There is clear evidence out of Australia of the ineffectiveness of a Register: Research suggests it is easier than ever for criminals to get guns illegally in Australia

It's a good article to refer people to, even Gun Control NZ. You'll note the word 'Register' never appears in the article once, not even from the Police.

Interesting stuff in there on moves to focus on the user rather than the tool.

And I'll add in c) Create a stand-alone Firearms Safety Authority, outside of Police. Separate policy from enforcement. NZTA works, firearms will be simpler than that.

And on the more important issue. There should be real and harsh punishments for leaking documents in an effort to sway govt policy. Especially given the nature of coalition govt's. It's a crime against democracy from people who think they know better than the voting public and the relevant m minister. Its also a show of partiality, which should be discouraged in any govt office.

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Originally Posted by 308

Good and fair point but I fear that the truth will be somewhat obscured by a Daily Mail style PR wave of lies
Once the government (any government) has decided to build something like the register it takes on a momentum of its own - people have budgets to spend, quotas to fill, jobs to protect

I am put in mind of the famous quote from Robocop-

Dick Jones: I had a guaranteed military sale with ED209! Renovation program! Spare parts for 25 years! Who cares if it worked or not!

It is difficult for a bureaucracy to admit that it has made an assumption error and go back to the drawing board. Twinning that drive with the fact that it is hard for the minds of government people to say something like"You know what? we actually want less control over and information on our citizens. Let them have more personal freedom"

I doubt that we will be able to flush the turd that is the register (although I will not stop arguing for it to be so)

I note grimly that given that streak of piss's actions against innocent Muslims in Chch two points seem to have been ignored
1) "lone wolf" style attacks are almost impossible to defend against
2) Tarrant armed himself with the help of incompetent staff in the vetting office not doing sufficient background checks into his referees - surely there should have been a boost in funding and training for back office police staff to stop this happening again?

The register is a politically driven idea that is almost completely pointless and arose from the desire for some of these poll-driven fruitcakes to be seen to be doing something

Perhaps a cartoon is appropriate
Attachment 273799

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That cartoon is so on point:thumbsup:

The register will not be scrapped as the wider public have been sold on the idea it's a public safety issue. Whether or not its effective or fit for purpose is irrelevant as in this world, facts are no longer considered to be relevant by most of the social and mainstream media platforms. The article that sparked this discussion is clear evidence of political based editorial direction, it's never going to change.
There are a number of Government agencies outside the Police who have access to information contained within the register, which must increase the chances of a data leak one would think.
The fact that is missing in the register debate is that fact that the gangs already have a large number of firearms. Retrospective registration is not going to change that fact. There are many ways criminals can obtain firearms and simple ways to identify addresses where firearms are likely to stored, register or not.
The simple fact is the register is being sold as being for the greater public good. The media push this as do 3 of the political parties, nothing we do as firearms owners will change this, unfortunately.

And there is a below the horizon Registry bias in the National party.

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Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

I put the following comment on the goodoil article comments section this morning\;


10 hours ago
I am in two minds about this. There seems very little chance of the register working, and a lot of potential for the data to leak. But a lot of the public believe it will stop crime, and a lot of MPs agree. Ultimately in democracy the people should get what they want, perhaps McKee and ACT should just express strongly worded objections, clearly state the issues, and wait a few years to be proven correct. Personally I would far prefer they focused on the semi auto issue, and get wider and easier access for shooters for pest control and competitions, rather than fight against the register.

ACT are in an awkward political position here in that any future firearms crime will be blamed on them regardless of what they do, or on logic. From the perspective of someone wanting wider semi auto access, I see political advantages in keeping the register. We all know that criminals are importing drugs, guns etc regularly. If we get wider access to semi autos and maintain a register of all legal firearms then comparing criminal use to legal use will be easier. Even Cahill might have difficulty blaming licensed shooters for crimes once the register is fully implemented, and unlicensed firearms alone are turning up in crime stats.

So I think the register will be a very costly failure, but it's not in the interests of legal shooters to oppose it. We have more to gain politically from keeping it than the anti-gun crowd do, who are creating their own failure.

As for the impact of data breaches, yes this is an issue, particualrly for inner city people who'se neighbours have no idea they own firearms. For farmers such as myself it's far less of an issue, I don't know any farms without firearms so the criminals already know where to look for them. We are already potential targets. From a future political potential I suggest register data breaches will gain far more sympathy for the legal shooters than for the rabid anti-gun crowd.

The register will inevitably prove to be a costly waste of item but I think shooters have more to lose than gain now by opposing it, if it was dumped we'd still be blamed for all future firearms crime, keep it in place and the blame shifts firmly away from us back to criminals, and eventually the public will be looking for answers to budget blow outs and future firearm crime that will by then be clearly shown to not be caused by us.

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It's an interesting take. To be honest the majority of collectors and shooters I know of personally, couldn't give a toss about the register in principle (putting it into practice is a different story) - but they want semis back for shooting.

The most vocal people I have interacted with in regards to the register, are hunters, people that mostly probably don't give a toss about access and use of centrefire semis. Not specifically saying they are against them, just not in their wheel house of priorities.

I could be fully reading the room wrong, but that is the overarching impression I have got in my circles.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

And there is a below the horizon Registry bias in the National party.

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And right there is the pity in it all. On all sides supposed smart people incapable of rational and pragmatic thought and speech and explaining stuff using a weird thing called facts. They just find it so hard to do. No. 6 second sound bites is all they are up for.

I'm of the mind that we will struggle to get rid of either because of the public anti-gun hive mind and the supporting politicians.
But I am probably one of the Hunter types Beavis mentioned. I did once own a Remington 243 semi, which, to be fair,was a bit of a lemon, but never got around to owning another,r although i was considering it when I moved back from OZ. If one is ever going to go it would be the registry by a nose
I hate this registry. It was brought in under duress to appease a population and used to control legal people. I also don't trust them to use it for future confiscations, as it suits them. Look out for anything like WA.
It's a waste of time,e and it shows they don't trust us, which means I don't trust them now.
plus it is a massive waste of time. cost for benefit is just so skewed its bollocks.