Should movie stars be allowed to outsource personal responsibility?

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Originally Posted by 40mm

There were three people at fault there.

The star for not che king it himself.
The person who passed it to him.
And the person who had it pointed at her, she should have also checked.

Nobody here seems to have ever heard of that other actor who got shot on set...

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On a movie set, where you could have lots of actors shooting at lots of other actors - sometimes both ways - and you may have several retakes to get it right, it probably is not feasible to get every actor to check every gun and every round in every mag. They will have to rely on some specialist to check instead. I am not saying it is the best practice, just saying these are practical concerns.

Also, not every actor who acts with a gun is necessarily a firearm owner and user. if there was a live round in a gun by mistake, it could be just as dangerous to rely on someone who do not what they are doing to identify and remedy the situation.

It is for this reason when you fly Jetstar, they do not let you inspect the plane. You rely on some aviation technical whom you do not know and never met to make sure the plane is airworthy.

I've just never seen anywhere in any firearm code where any shooter (be it licensed or operating under supervision) doesn't retain a large responsibility
for safely handling that firearm. Sure, there's liability for the safety staff, but that's a separate issue.

I think that he will face a jury who haven't seen all this 'its not his fault, he's just an actor' angle.
I can see the cops handing out charges in a 360degree pattern.

-Failed to personally clear the weapon (as seems to be required of him personally by law in New Texas, and industry standard operating procedures)
-Didn't keep his finger out of the trigger guard as trained on multiple film sets.
-Failed to hire sufficiently experienced safety staff in his capacity as co producer
-Failed to act on the serious safety breaches in his capacity as co producer
-Failed to report staff for plinking and bringing live ammunition to his site (if they can prove he knew which wont be too hard if he was aware).

I reckon he's going to get eaten alive by lawyers (my 2c). Not a lot of wiggle room in those questions for his defense team.

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

I'm trying to picture the Andy McNab trained actors: Rob De Niro, Val Kilmer, Tom Sizemore, Wes Studi, Al Pacino, or Director Michael Mann making the same f**k up on the set of Heat in 1995.

Or purely computer generated FX muzzle flashes, flying brass and impact hits making the movie look as good.

Attachment 182173

Nah, just can't see it happening.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAOl...hannel=jaicban

extra loud blanks made HEAT a great movie.

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Originally Posted by ishoot10s

@dogmatix Friggen great movie, watched it for about the 10th time a couple days ago. The massive shootout was inspired by the real Phillips & Matasareanu one in North Hollywood.

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those guys really needed to work on their accuracy. I read they shot 1000 rounds down range and they still got clapped.

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Originally Posted by Russian 22.

I read they shot 1000 rounds down range and they still got clapped.

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They swallowed a ton of Matasareanu’s epilepsy pills to steady themselves before the robbery. That came back to bite them or Phillips at least who prolly wasn’t used to the drug, and he started to lose the plot. But they still managed to cause a lot of damage to property and vehicles and certainly injured a lot of police and civilians. If nothing else, that drama resulted in a lot of PD’s rethinking armed response and they tooled up big time in the aftermath.

Apparently the same gun used on set was also used by the crew for recreational target shooting off set. Both live rounds and blanks were present on set because of this recreational activity. The armorer is an incompetent nepotism hire. There are multiple layers of utter failure that occurred in this incident.

If he is also a producer I would say his goose is cooked, also the argument about years of experience and if true about being used with live rounds, well he would be expected to know that also.

This type of firearm accidents shouldn't happen. But they do.

Maybe we should think about this one next time we pick up a firearm, never hurts to contemplate what can go wrong occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

I'm not sure that you could call the armourer a nepotism hire, small industry and all that. But for whatever reason definitely didn't prep for the rehersal. The camera crew walked off set that morning pissed off about accommodation and expenses/conditions apparently so the entire project was a cock up from the get go, schedules not being followed and all sorts of stuff out of sync to what should have been happening. It's possible that the gun was fully prepped for a different sequence and the cluster with the crew walkoff that morning threw everything out so much that the rehersal wasn't meant to be happening and the armourer wasn't in the loop. Either way, loaded/operational guns shouldn't have been left like that without being guard dogged, and shouldn't have been picked up without passing through at least two sets of safety inspections (once when picked up, once by actor when handed over).

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it was nepotism, she is the daughter of a famous (In movie circles) armourer and had only done a year or two of experience under him and had expressed doubts about her own competency.

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Originally Posted by JessicaChen

Apparently the same gun used on set was also used by the crew for recreational target shooting off set. Both live rounds and blanks were present on set because of this recreational activity. The armorer is an incompetent nepotism hire. There are multiple layers of utter failure that occurred in this incident.

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Maybe something to it. Certainly not the gun safety culture you'd get if more people on the set were safety-trained gun owners. An interesting take here on how "divided America" may have been unhelpful leading up to this accident:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdG9HIaAMxY

The relevant part about 2 minutes in.

I find it interesting that Baldwin, because of his A list status, depends on underlings to keep him from making mistakes.
IMHO - if you're the one in control of the trigger, YOU are ultimately responsible for the consequences of pulling the trigger.
I agree that having live and blank ammunition on the same set has the makings of a disaster.
Whatever the crew's after work activities are with the studio guns - live round plinking for example - those rounds should not have been on an active filming set.
As co-producer/manager, Baldwin is ultimately responsible for the safety/actions of the whole crew.
'I didn't know" isn't going to cut it in American Court's.

I am betting that 'Blaming the Gun' wont work...........which means that 'Blaming the person or persons' will result in lots of lawyers making lots of money due to the amount of 'stupid' shown by those present.........

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Originally Posted by 40mm

There were three people at fault there.

The star for not che king it himself.
The person who passed it to him.
And the person who had it pointed at her, she should have also checked.

Nobody here seems to have ever heard of that other actor who got shot on set...

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Bruce Lee's son I think. Brandon

armourer has just come out and said "has no idea where they got loaded rounds from,the whole set was becoming unsafe"

another post said the crew were plinking away between shoots......hmmmmm makes a fella wonder what went on.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

armourer has just come out and said "has no idea where they got loaded rounds from,the whole set was becoming unsafe"

another post said the crew were plinking away between shoots......hmmmmm makes a fella wonder what went on.

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And that the firearms were locked up at lunchtime and in the evenings. Did someone else have a set of keys?

Still it would seem strange if she didn't know this was going on.

Will Smith shows how its done.

https://youtu.be/UELwDUEl1Po

lol shit my opinion of Will just went up

….as sad as this situation is….. Baldwin is an arsehole…. Anti-gun advocate for years….. if he’d taken the time to learn firearm safety this may of not happened

I have a mate who works on these movie sets,… sparky,chippee,jack of all trades…has worked this stuff for 30 years.He was telling me the previous crew,armorers etc walked off this job,…. Safety issues,poor practices etc….. the new lot considered scabs!!!…..Baldwin has a history of poor mgt decisions,his self importance is a joke

Not a fan of Baldwin either, but as much as a lot of people are suggesting he is to blame, here is another way to look at it.

I don't know what the rules / laws are in the US.
However, if it had happened in NZ, the first think I would be asking is, was he licensed?
It has been stated, he is an anti-gun advocate, so for the sake of this argument, lets assume he wasn't licensed.

In NZ, you are allowed to use a firearm unlicensed if you have a licensed person with you. The licensed person is responsible for anything you do with that firearm.

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Originally Posted by kiwi-adam

Not a fan of Baldwin either, but as much as a lot of people are suggesting he is to blame, here is another way to look at it.

I don't know what the rules / laws are in the US.
However, if it had happened in NZ, the first think I would be asking is, was he licensed?
It has been stated, he is an anti-gun advocate, so for the sake of this argument, lets assume he wasn't licensed.

In NZ, you are allowed to use a firearm unlicensed if you have a licensed person with you. The licensed person is responsible for anything you do with that firearm.

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From whichever perspective regarding personal responsibility with firearms, being the producer who hired an inexperienced person who then stated they were uncomfortable with the role is likely to be the big issue here. A bit like a Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking PCBU under worksafe. Unless you can divorce yourself of responsibility in the US (i doubt it), you will wear some part of the blame.

Quote…. However, if it had happened in NZ,…….. well Adam ,it’s not in kiwi

2ndly…… the fact is ,this was a poorly run,managed operation either way you look at it.The carelessness,and attitudes either for a kiwi or yank run operation were poor at best……… either way ,a women lost her life!!!

According to my mate…. To be the “Armourer”… requires no “real” licence…. .. other than previous experience,word of mouth,previous positions with other projects etc……. I found that hard to believe me ,but he assured me this was the case….. this position requires no degrees,licenses,titles,etc etc etc…… I still trying to find out if that’s correct or not

So the armorers law team is suggesting a livey somehow ended up in a box of dummy rounds. Interesting that the livey just happened to be one of those grabbed to be loaded, and then go into the chamber that went under the hammer, what are the odds...? Next there will be a theory that there was tension between the AD and someone else on set and that he slipped the livey in before he gave the gun to Baldwin... This'll make a classic whodunnit movie one day...

The whole thing is such a joke ..,there’s a liar in every corner

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Originally Posted by ishoot10s

So the armorers law team is suggesting a livey somehow ended up in a box of dummy rounds. Interesting that the livey just happened to be one of those grabbed to be loaded, and then go into the chamber that went under the hammer, what are the odds...? Next there will be a theory that there was tension between the AD and someone else on set and that he slipped the livey in before he gave the gun to Baldwin... This'll make a classic whodunnit movie one day...

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OR: create a conspiracy theory!:thumbsup:

NB…. Kiwi-Adam… apologies if my post came across as being a ..”cock”… not implied… .my post was not to insinuate anything

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Originally Posted by A330driver

….as sad as this situation is….. Baldwin is an arsehole…. Anti-gun advocate for years….. if he’d taken the time to learn firearm safety this may of not happened

I have a mate who works on these movie sets,… sparky,chippee,jack of all trades…has worked this stuff for 30 years.He was telling me the previous crew,armorers etc walked off this job,…. Safety issues,poor practices etc….. the new lot considered scabs!!!…..Baldwin has a history of poor mgt decisions,his self importance is a joke

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Yes, thd hypocrisy of the antis is common. Don't like this because I don't understand it. Baldwin clearly doesn't understand safe handling, here cook doesn't even understand what makes up a bullet. Willfully ignorant and on a crusade

That's meant to be hera cook. Forum having a tantrum and not letting me edit.

I wonder if he would have taken a little more care if he was handed a razor sharp sword or asked to drive a car for a stunt, he would have asked for some training for those.

Watch this space more law suits will happen against Mr Baldwin which might make him bankrupt unless he was covered by insurance. A civil suit does not allow off loading of liability against the plaintiff especially from the deceased's family. Mr Trump will be grinning.

The lawyer for the directors assistant came out and stated that checking firearms was in fact NOT in his contract..... oops. Wasn't that AB's entire argument? By blaming Hall, he deferred the blame away from the armourer. Kinda leaves just him....

There were/are actually news stories going around where Baldwin was being set up by NRA /Trump supporter types.
Funny that I only saw them a couple days ago and now can't find links.

Almost like those media outlets realized how ridiculous that is.

oh yeah i saw some of those. BS stories about somebody trying to sabotage the movie. Only a cockroach lawyer could create such crap! This is the same thing as Brandon Lee on 'the crow' i reckon.
The prop department will have been making blanks from real ammo (to make it look real) and they've stuffed up and missed one. Nobody will have been out 'plinking'.
Not without everyone on the set knowing because its in the middle of nowhere. Nobody has said people were out taking target practice so far except for media speculating.

Yet all this attention is happening because of Baldwins 'political views' according to his brother. Could it be because his personal laziness cost a person's life? I'm thinking that's actually it :slow:

To my understanding prop guns are supposed to be blank firing guns. Why was he handed a live firing gun?

Its safe to assume that Baldwin himself approved the use of a real single action, real pistol over using CGI.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainmen...ll-the-trigger

Looks like it was one of those self firing and aiming guns we hear about.

It was a western film so I assume it was a single action in which case he'd have to pull the hammer back first. Hard to do accidentally

Big mother of an assumption though

Sounds a bit like Bill Clinton.

That was what I was thinking too. Western film so should be revolvers so how down a revolver with the hammer down suddenly fire. Will be very easy for the authorities to check to see if the gun can cock it's own hammer and then discharge without the trigger being pulled. Sounds like he's trying to dodge any blame.

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Originally Posted by imaca

It was a western film so I assume it was a single action in which case he'd have to pull the hammer back first. Hard to do accidentally

Big mother of an assumption though

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Quote..”Yet all this attention is happening because of Baldwins 'political views' according to his brother. Could it be because his personal laziness cost a person's life? I'm thinking that's actually it “

Bingo!!

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Originally Posted by rugerman

That was what I was thinking too. Western film so should be revolvers so how down a revolver with the hammer down suddenly fire. Will be very easy for the authorities to check to see if the gun can cock it's own hammer and then discharge without the trigger being pulled. Sounds like he's trying to dodge any blame.

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That is EXACTLY what he is now saying "I didn't pull the trigger, it just went off".

What's not surprising is none of the MSM seems to be openly calling that bullshit. Instead they are praising his latest emotional interview for it's honesty.

He's fucked. Probably not criminally fucked but civil litigation wise he is going to get gang banged.

Can't say I will shed a tear. Except for the young kid now motherless.

Call me crazy, but it is looking more and more like intentional homicide by Baldwin from what I can see. The also scene never required a gun to be pointed at anyone or shot in the first place.