Target id.

Hi all. I'm new to the forum and fairly new to hunting. I've been out in the bush a few times and as a relative newbie feel I am looking at the sport with fresh eyes. A lot of my mates have been hunting for a long time and I have been around it for many years. What I noticed in the bush is how different the sight picture through a scope looks and how radically it changes with a bit of cloud cover or different light conditions. Even while I was looking through the scope the sight picture changed dramatically with a cloud coming over or in late afternoon with falling light. It got me thinking about two things.

1- With a lot of the NZ bush having cell coverage these days could there be an app that can be turned on in the bush that shows where other hunters are. Not saying you need to walk around staring at your phone all day but something that will show there's someone over there and another over there. It doesn't need to identify the person just that they are there. Maybe there could be some sort of alert that comes up if you are within 200 or 300m of each other (silent of course vibrate might be enough). You could look at it before going in or check occasionally during the day. If your buddy can't be seen it can show you where they are.

2- I was amazed at how the sight picture from eyeball to scope and even looking through the scope can change. What if your guns were made safe and have a look at each other through the scope in all different conditions to see what the sight picture of another person looks like. Ideally we could get a look at the sight picture of a deer but not so easy or frequent. I know this goes against the grain with treat every firearm as loaded but with some common sense this could be made safe. At least then you will have a good idea of what the sight picture of another hunter looks like.

Not saying this will be the total solution but could swing the balance in the right direction if you do happen to start lining someone up by mistake. Also not saying I'm right just putting it out there for discussion. I know that our brains can be easily fooled but with an existing sight picture in our mind of another hunter it could be the difference between pulling the trigger and having a beer with him later.

What are the thoughts.

Who have you got your mobile through? Vodafone coverage cuts out for me a couple of k's outside towns.

My BIL and I tried to interest MSC in developing a lightweight signal emitter (cheap, mass produced), for this purpose, to be carried by anyone in the bush - trampers & hunters.
Maximum range in thick bush would've been 500-600 meters and directional, so you'd get a warning that someone was nearby and in your possible line of fire.
Thought about a warning light in the scope view, but final trigger operation would be the hunter's decision.
The signal would be line of sight only, so transmitters on the other side of a ridge wouldn't stop a shot.
Never heard back from MSC.
There's a patent out in West Germany for something very similar (intellectual only), but apart from the Garmin 2 way radio/GPS, not aware of any other equipment around.

Purely in jest.

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Personally I don't think the answer is in electronic aids.
A shift in personal standards, attitude and some basic knowledge of the 'human element' would be far more productive and reliable.

You live in the north island don't you Gordo? (I assume your name is Gordon, or you're chubby...) it amazes me the coverage you seem to get up there, where as down here in the forgotten isles I live on the Canterbury plains 20 minutes from chch and have to dance around and hold my tongue just the right way to get a text message to go through.
There's already an answer to this problem, but people seem to not think much of the idea and go round shooting other hunters anyhow. It's a matter of changing the mindset of these people not giving them more gadgets to make things even more confusing for them

El Gordo!!

Gordo...... if you look at it like this you wont go far wrong.....
that thing Im looking at....are the antlers bigger than the ones on wall at home???? does the back steaks look to be nice n fat or is it a skinny beast??? are those ears swiveling or just drooping???? are the legs walking,stomping??? red or fallow (my Mrs wont eat fallow so important for me).....is it a black pig or another dog like mine??? ok so its a live animal of type I want,and can carry it out from here.
yip I want to eat it.....bang.

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Originally Posted by Moutere

Personally I don't think the answer is in electronic aids.
A shift in personal standards, attitude and some basic knowledge of the 'human element' would be far more productive and reliable.

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Agreed - the problem with electronic aids is that people can (consciously or subconsciously) start to rely on them instead of using their own sense and judgement. You'll never get everyone using them, but you might get some people assuming another person is an animal because they don't have an electronic signal.

I'm not saying this would be the total answer. Totally agree that attitude is the most important thing. Yes I'm in the North Island where coverage is better but can still be patchy. I'm not thinking that you would have it on all the time. Maybe have a look at it just before going into an area and see if there is anyone else showing. Of course you wouldn't be able to rely on it due to signal coverage. But as another tool it might just make someone more aware there are other hunters in the area and take a bit more care. Definitely not the total solution though and I agree that it is no substitute for common sense and taking care.

It just seems there are a number of people being shot and some by very experienced hunters who you think would know better.

Many years ago a mate of mine shot his hunting buddy. He was very experienced but still got caught out. One thing that stuck in my mind was the way he talked about the sight picture. I often wonder if he had seen that sight picture previously if the outcome might have been different. How many hunters actually look at other hunters through a scope to see what they look like. I still believe however the problem is many really want it to be a deer instead of thinking that it could easily be another person.

Fair comments so far though. Nothing wrong with putting all ideas on the table.

That is true about becoming reliant on it. I don't think it would be accurate enough to think oh there's no signal so it's not a hunter. More to make you aware there are definitely others in the area. I guess the issue then becomes oh well there's no other signals so I must be on my own and I can blast away. People would need to understand the limitations of it due any number of factors the main one being signal coverage. At the end of the day you can't throw sense and judgement out the window because you have an app. It would simply be another tool in the tool box.

ha ha definitely not El Gordo. You are right though that too many may come to rely on it instead of seeing it as another tool. Stress, expectations and adrenaline are things that can lead to poor decisions being made. The thing with my mate is he was absolutely convinced he was looking at a deer wen he pulled the trigger.

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Originally Posted by Gordo

The thing with my mate is he was absolutely convinced he was looking at a deer wen he pulled the trigger.

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No he wasn't. This is why any kind of research into why this happens etc will always be flawed, because the shooter always gives the same bullshit answer.

Are you his mate Ryan??You can’t make that judgement call. You weren’t there. All Gordon has done is chuck some ideas out there for discussion not to be ripped to shreds by by people on the net.


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Originally Posted by tiroatedson

Are you his mate Ryan??You can’t make that judgement call. You weren’t there. All Gordon has done is chuck some ideas out there for discussion not to be ripped to shreds by by people on the net.


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You're right, maybe he had taken lsd or something, I wasn't there

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

You live in the north island don't you Gordo? (I assume your name is Gordon, or you're chubby...) it amazes me the coverage you seem to get up there, where as down here in the forgotten isles I live on the Canterbury plains 20 minutes from chch and have to dance around and hold my tongue just the right way to get a text message to go through.
There's already an answer to this problem, but people seem to not think much of the idea and go round shooting other hunters anyhow. It's a matter of changing the mindset of these people not giving them more gadgets to make things even more confusing for them

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Wow times must of changed since 14 years ago when I liven on Ashley Gorge rd in Glentui because I had cell reception no worries back then and that's more than 20 min from CHCH city centre and my phone was not smart

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Originally Posted by Paddy79

Wow times must of changed since 14 years ago when I liven on Ashley Gorge rd in Glentui because I had cell reception no worries back then and that's more than 20 min from CHCH city centre and my phone was not smart

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Very likely when signal was still analogue in a lot of places, now it's 100% digital it's crap

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Very likely when signal was still analogue in a lot of places, now it's 100% digital it's crap

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Yeah you most likely right there I don't think digital existed back then hahaha and yes you 100% are right about the digital part too.

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Originally Posted by Paddy79

Wow times must of changed since 14 years ago when I liven on Ashley Gorge rd in Glentui because I had cell reception no worries back then and that's more than 20 min from CHCH city centre and my phone was not smart

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It’s actually real crap out there


And real crap all over the North Island too

I sometimes don't get cell phone coverage in my room! But at the long drop at mangamuka hut I can get some!.

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Originally Posted by Moutere

Purely in jest.

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Put me down for one with a blue strobe light

Maybe it would be helpful only to identify targets through binoculars, not scopes.

I think it was @Ryan_Songhurst I read suggesting that, if you can't tell the sex of your target you haven't identified it.

Worth serious thought?

I totally disagree with the idea of any sort of electronic detention aid or compulsory standard for outdoor users.
As soon as you introduce something like that you diminish the responsibility of the shooter.
"I didn't get a signal from the aid so I shot him".
"He wasn't wearing the device so it was his fault I shot him".
It is like trying to make hi-vis compulsory for motorcyclists. If you are not wearing it then it is your fault if some dopey driver doesn't see you and kills you.
I am all for making yourself visible and doing anything you feel will increase your chances of being recognised as a person and not game but unless everyone does it (which they won't) and it is fool proof (which it won't be) then all it does is give someone another excuse for NOT IDENTIFYING THEIR TARGET.

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Originally Posted by Cordite

Maybe it would be helpful only to identify targets through binoculars, not scopes.

I think it was @Ryan_Songhurst I read suggesting that, if you can't tell the sex of your target you haven't identified it.

Worth serious thought?

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Not me... shit I stare at chamois for bloody ages trying to work out if it's got dangly bits haha

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Not me... shit I stare at chamois for bloody ages trying to work out if it's got dangly bits haha

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@Ryan_Songhurst

I'll make sure I keep my hair short in that case.

Good on you for thinking about safety and target identification Gordo, full marks. It is only time and experience that train your brain as to how animals appear in different situations. By that I mean your brain has to learn how to interpret the refracted light coming to your eyes from the object in different shadings etc. There is plenty of opportunity for mistakes, with heart beating and adrenaline flowing.
The best method of target ID that I know of was originated by the Graf Brothers 'Assume everything is a human until you have proven otherwise'

all the red deer ever bred
wont make up for one man dead

no meat is better than no mate

those 2 sayings have been around 40 plus years,its not a new problem,maybe much mure publisised but not new.
scope ID has saved more than one life over the years,but yes binos would be better in ideal world....when bush stalking they are in my backpack.

is that gap between cars big enough for me to get out and into??? or are they going too fast??? how did we learn this skill...we watched others and probably all had more close calls than we care to admit. the thing is it took time and experience to learn what was right. and we had to be extremely cautious untill we learnt then we had experience to lean on but still need to be cautious....similar wouldnt you say????