Trial Firearm Licence Firearm Safety Programme

Update from Mike McIlraith, Officer in Charge, Arms Act Service Delivery Group, NZ Police...

Background
New Zealand Police (Police) are required by Regulation to deliver firearms safety training and to date this has been achieved by the engagement of a suitable third party. By 1 July 2018 Police intend that a new firearms safety programme will be delivered for a two year trial period. This programme will be in two parts: theory and practical.

Theory knowledge will be provided by Police via an online learning module hosted on the main Police website. The theoretical test will be done online through a government agency acting on behalf of Police. Practical training will be delivered for Police through a contractual arrangement with one or more third parties with a focus on hands-on safe-handling and use of firearms designed to improve safety outcomes. It is the intention of Police that the third party for the practical training will be identified via a Request for Quotation (RFQ) process which will be commenced in January 2018.

bugger...thought for a minute they were going to introduce a learners firearms licence.....which I firmly believe has great merit.
my thoughts are
#1 can use firearm independantly (so no more 1 gun B.S. when hunting with young/learner)
#2..... three day storage ..so can pick up on friday and use for weekend
#3 need sponser to store long term...this gives sponser time to ask what,where,when.why BEFORE handing over rifles...so if young BillyBob is intending to piss up with mates then spotlight cockies farm he COULD HOPEFULLY be talked out of being a dick or told piss off you not getting rifle and if you not happy I will call coppers and tell them I wont be sponser any longer.

food for thought
as it is a young person with dodgy past has only slim chance of getting licence but a probation period /learners licence could help that.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

bugger...thought for a minute they were going to introduce a learners firearms licence.....which I firmly believe has great merit.
my thoughts are
#1 can use firearm independantly (so no more 1 gun B.S. when hunting with young/learner)
#2..... three day storage ..so can pick up on friday and use for weekend
#3 need sponser to store long term...this gives sponser time to ask what,where,when.why BEFORE handing over rifles...so if young BillyBob is intending to piss up with mates then spotlight cockies farm he COULD HOPEFULLY be talked out of being a dick or told piss off you not getting rifle and if you not happy I will call coppers and tell them I wont be sponser any longer.

food for thought
as it is a young person with dodgy past has only slim chance of getting licence but a probation period /learners licence could help that.

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There is no scope in the legislation for a 'leaners licence'. You either have one or you don't.

I see no benefit, and many areas of concern for your proposal.

Interesting to see that NZPOL have included a practical training/assessment as part of the safety course. We shall see how well they consult with the community on the content.

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Originally Posted by Koshogi

I see no benefit, and many areas of concern for your proposal.

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I can think of several deaths where the guy at fault was an older, experienced firearms user. Would be interesting to crunch the stats on that one, but I see complacency as a big big factor, especially in misidentification of target and unloading of firearms in the last year or two.

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Interesting to see that NZPOL have included a practical training/assessment as part of the safety course.

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If they were to do it in-house, they might want to stop pushing out the staff that show interest in firearms in favour of promoting staff with zero knowledge or interest (AKL central being one example.), and maaaaybe do the opposite. Personally, I don't think the police should be looking after firearms licensing at all. Rather, it should be tacked onto Internal Affairs or the like.

I welcome the introduction practical training / assessment component of the course. It's important to learn how mechanical devices operate and what to do in the event that they malfunction.

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Originally Posted by Ryan

I welcome the introduction practical training / assessment component of the course. It's important to learn how mechanical devices operate and what to do in the event that they malfunction.

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Yes, agree, but who is to do it? That's a key point

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Originally Posted by Tommy

Yes, agree, but who is to do it? That's a key point

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That remains to be seen. Obviously a person or entity familiar with the use and function of the various different types of firearms out there, perhaps one without a vested interest in the laws that govern them.

Here’s the rest of it.

Requirements
Interested parties will be required to deliver a two-hour practical training session focusing on safe handling of firearms. Programme content and key result areas are still under development however the programme will be largely designed as a hands-on safe-handling and use of firearms, designed to improve safety outcomes. No live-firing of firearms is involved.

Expected RFQ questions
Describe your organisation and experience at managing and delivering training programmes.
Describe your organisation’s ability to manage budgets and business plan implementation.
Describe your organisation’s experience at delivering firearms safety training to firearms’ users.
Describe your organisation’s intended instructors’ experience and selection process.
Describe how your organisation will manage programme delivery consistency standards (quality assurance) functions for training.
Describe how your organisation could provide additional safety, hunting and firearms-use literature or online material to support a new firearm user.
Describe how your organisation will deliver sufficient firearms safety training sessions nationally every 12 months in the locations shown in the table below to meet the anticipated volume of trainees, and a suitable percentage of contingency sessions for small trainee volume increases.

Out of scope
The theory training will be provided online in the Police web site, and the theory test via a Police partnership arrangement with another government agency. The RFQ is for the practical training component only.
Whakatupato Programme will continue delivery of services in addition to any service provision resulting from this RFQ.

Support and resources provided
Training programme supplied and owned by Police. Programme to be developed in consultation with firearms community representatives in first quarter of 2018.
Training venues at each location provided through Police partnership arrangement.
Booking system for sessions will be supplied and owned by Police. System development to take place in second quarter of 2018.
Initial and subsequent train-the-trainer sessions for all instructors at limited locations across New Zealand; instructor attendance is compulsory and costs of travel will not be met by Police.

Other requirements
Training programme delivery frequency will be scheduled by Police in agreement with the provider to meet anticipated audience locations and volume.
Monthly reporting on all aspects of the programme delivery against plan, including financials. Format will be developed and mandated by Police.
There will be a financial cap for available funds to deliver this service. This cap will be advised as part of the RFQ.

right now a kid can go in and fail 6 times in row with out leaving the place before passing, and being shown what they got wrong, I think if u fail then you need a rebook test just like a drivers licence test.

You have to provide 660 courses across the length of the country per year with 20 FAL applicants per course.

The question might be, who would want to do it? And who would be capable of handling it. MSC got rid of there volunteers, could be an opportunity for NZDA?

Also it will be interesting to see what Police will charge for it? $100 ea would be 1.3million

I've always thought a practical element is required and its in line with European countries licensing systems.

I would have appreciated being shown practical safe handling, basic marksmanship techniques, how the different actions work, what to do with jams/misfires and taking them apart etc when I first got my license.

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

I've always thought a practical element is required and its in line with European countries licensing systems.

I would have appreciated being shown practical safe handling, basic marksmanship techniques, how the different actions work, what to do with jams/misfires and taking them apart etc when I first got my license.

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Makes sense and makes for more confident and responsible firearm owners. One doesn't just provide theoretical training on how to operate cars, forklifts, lathes etc.

At the moment,except our sas in Middle East, there are no organisations that I can think of that qualifies for what the police is asking. Nzda with some ex msc are the most appropriate providers for what they want it seems.

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Originally Posted by Friwi

At the moment,except our sas in Middle East, there are no organisations that I can think of that qualifies for what the police is asking. Nzda with some ex msc are the most appropriate providers for what they want it seems.

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http://www.fss.nz/

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Bring back Cadets and rifles ranges at colleges, just like the good old days, plenty of skills learnt on handling and firing firearms, including pistols and all types of military weapons!! Sitting on the grass pulling them to bits and reassembling!! Oh and nobody died, the TV Aerial at the back of the rang took a hammering with the .22s!!
No wonder I got hooked early, of course I have rocks in my head for suggesting such things in this PC world today!!

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Originally Posted by muzza

Currently MSC volunteers are still conducting the courses. In the event that MSC get the new contract I beleive many of those volunteers will not be available . Most of us are hanging in there for the people who require licences , not for any sense of duty to MSC.

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That's the certainly the situation in the South Waikato. Although, we resigned from MSC a while back and currently deal with the police direct.

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Originally Posted by Ryan

Makes sense and makes for more confident and responsible firearm owners. One doesn't just provide theoretical training on how to operate cars, forklifts, lathes etc.

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How much real practical training will someone get in an hour or two? (Divided by the number of people on the course.)

As the instructors are usually dealing with people with little or no experience with guns, surely any practical training needs to be one on one?

A two hour course with 20 people equals six minutes each. Unless you have more instructors, less students or make people take a longer course.

I think any practical part will be pretty much the same as it is now: How to open the actions of different types of guns and check they are unloaded.

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Originally Posted by systolic

How much real practical training will someone get in an hour or two? (Divided by the number of people on the course.)

As the instructors are usually dealing with people with little or no experience with guns, surely any practical training needs to be one on one?

A two hour course with 20 people equals six minutes each. Unless you have more instructors, less students or make people take a longer course.

I think any practical part will be pretty much the same as it is now: How to open the actions of different types of guns and check they are unloaded.

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Most initial training prior to Toet training in the Army is only a 30-40 min lesson for a number of students that have never handled a firearm.

Certainly won't have the repetition the military has but I think it is achievable for a base understanding.

In fact I think only the military has the means to deliver the required police training with any consistency and efficiency, but that will never happen.


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Originally Posted by R93

Most initial training prior to Toet training in the Army is only a 30-40 min lesson for a number of students that have never handled a firearm.

Certainly won't have the repetition the military has but I think it is achievable for a base understanding.

In fact I think only the military has the means to deliver the required police training with any consistency and efficiency, but that will never happen.


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I would imagine the army students are all using the exact same type of gun?

That would make things a bit easier?

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Originally Posted by systolic

How much real practical training will someone get in an hour or two? (Divided by the number of people on the course.)

As the instructors are usually dealing with people with little or no experience with guns, surely any practical training needs to be one on one?

A two hour course with 20 people equals six minutes each. Unless you have more instructors, less students or make people take a longer course.

I think any practical part will be pretty much the same as it is now: How to open the actions of different types of guns and check they are unloaded.

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Certainly a valid point but without the specifics of the training program to hand, it's not possible for me to comment on how they intend achieving it or the standard set to achieve a pass. Interestingly, the practical aspect you mentioned was not covered at all when I sat my licence application which I found surprising.

It suggests that the former training content presented was inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Maca49

Bring back Cadets and rifles ranges at colleges, just like the good old days, plenty of skills learnt on handling and firing firearms, including pistols and all types of military weapons!! Sitting on the grass pulling them to bits and reassembling!! Oh and nobody died, the TV Aerial at the back of the rang took a hammering with the .22s!!
No wonder I got hooked early, of course I have rocks in my head for suggesting such things in this PC world today!!

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hell, they are pulling school pools out for H&S reasons, they wont be letting kids near firearms.
the world has gone mad ! mad i tell you.
i cant go mad because i am a meat flavoured popsicle !!!

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Originally Posted by gonetropo

hell, they are pulling school pools out for H&S reasons, they wont be letting kids near firearms.
the world has gone mad ! mad i tell you.
i cant go mad because i am a meat flavoured popsicle !!!

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A company had to send a guy up to McLarens Falls near Tauranga, the other day to erect a sign warning not to swim or take shell fish from the dam, Day after he went back to remove it! 6 hours of pissing around. The tested water was fine!!

Simple if you sit your paperwork test and fail you should leave the room immediately and be made to repay another 200$ to re sit because right now you can go in fail and re do it then and there 6 times or more with help
the system in place right now allows morons to get their A-Cat.
it should not be that easy, yes 7 simple rules are simple and easy but when you have idiots failing a test constantly and getting help to pass then something has to change in order to get rid of the idiots

Having just got my license, (i shot a reasonable amount as a kid, but not in the last 25 years or so) The "safety" course is a bit of a joke.

I would be a good idea to at least show people how different actions work and how to clear a jam, even just some basic maintenance

As much as I think more training is a good idea, the cost has to stay reasonable.
Also remember that you don't get your firearms license proper until the AO has supposedly interviewed one of the referees who has a firearms license. I would imagine that it is assumed that the person who has vouched for their integrity and safety probably has done more detailed instruction with more hands on.

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Originally Posted by csmiffy

As much as I think more training is a good idea, the cost has to stay reasonable.
Also remember that you don't get your firearms license proper until the AO has supposedly interviewed one of the referees who has a firearms license. I would imagine that it is assumed that the person who has vouched for their integrity and safety probably has done more detailed instruction with more hands on.

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There is no requirement for a referee to possess a firearm licence.