Thread: Very Powerful Firearms

https://youtu.be/0dOEON-H9BQ

Thanks @Flyblown. What the lady says about the inner workings and manipulations by ministerial advisors and associated bureaucrats is so true and can equally be applied to several government departments in our country; DoC in particular and MPI related NGO's like the Animal Health Board, TBFree NZ and OSPRI.
I wish there were many more like this lady here in New Zealand.

Couple of comments on the above.

I've worked on the other side of the table to local, regional and central government on a bunch of stuff over the years - farming, mining, dog control law, roading, other stuff. There's a real devious side to the bureaucracy that you've got to be very very careful to avoid working up. When there's a bill being considered, and there's an expected public response, in today's Facebook / forum world the very first thing that the underlings do in the name of 'research' is hop onto the sites and copy and paste the choice comments from the antis and store them for future use. Now a lot of these underlings aren't like you and I, they live in townhouses in cities and use public transport and spend more than they earn on frivolous crap, silly coffee and drink strawberry flavoured beer in tiny glasses.

In the case of gun control, you can bet your bottom dollar 90% of the underlings will be on the 'control' side of the argument, and those that aren't quite sure will pretend they are cos they've got a promotion in mind. Seeing as how this issue is a really hot topic liable to generate significant political capital amongst the city dwelling lefties in AKL, WLGN and CHCH, only the best, most dogged underlings are put on the case. And their bosses order them to come up with a 'profile' of the likely opponents.

This profile will be a one pager that is thrust under the nose of the chief bureaucrat, who signs it off for inclusion in the dossier to the Minister. The Minister will take approximately 15 seconds to skim read this profile, see some of the choice comments about government, the police, Australia, etc, and think "Hmm, bogans and fuckwits, that shouldn't be too hard". In that moment, the die is cast. Any organised response to any proposed changes (e.g. SSAA) is then regarded as representing said bogans and fuckwits and these poor buggers are pushing a barrow load uphill all the way, on our behalf.

Don't think I'm joking about this. I've seen these dossiers. They manipulate and bend and misrepresent and pervert the truth to suit an agenda. It totally plays into the hands of the faceless grey bureaucrats, the abusive throw away one-liners, the rants after a few beers. They take what you've written on a public forum and copy and paste to suit their agenda. Once its in black and white, they've got you.

The only way forward is to drop the anger and vitriol and find a way to unite behind a lobby group that can do the job. A mini NRA without quite so much of their crap. But that is a very hard thing to achieve, here, in my experience. We're so parochial and mistrusting of the agenda of others.

I worked off a Station in WA last year and the owner was legitimately looking to do exactly this.
The way the corresponsdance reads it could easily be directed to the same bloke, he even had the .300 Winchester Magnum.
I agree, theirs is a legitimate question within the context of their law. However, the concerns of the applicant should not be discounted here.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Problem is, having lived in outback WA for 6 yrs and been a licenced firearms holder there, that guys make up a lot of shit in the “genuine need” part of their application for a particular firearm, and get some land owner (who usually charges a cashie of between $200-500) to validate this “genuine need”.

So in this example, this bloke has basically claimed that this particular rifle is for use on camels. Now the cops that have been told to review firearm ownership and weed out the anomalies know that about 0.0000001% of camels shot in WA are likely to be shot with a .408 that looks just like a sniper rifle. Well, for all intents and purposes, is a sniper rifle.

The question they have asked him is why he can’t shoot his camels with his .300 Win Mag and be done with it? What is his genuine need for the .408? Not an unreasonable question. Shit, I shot camels with a .308 T3.

Now the reason I’m playing devil’s advocate fellas is that if the licence holder had applied properly as a long range enthusiast with appropriate accreditations, no problem. There are lot of those types in WA in the Wheat Belt with all sorts of incredible rifles, no problems! Mistake he’s made, probably, is to try and play the rules. It’s the few percent that fib on their applications and get them passed that attract a lot more shit for the whole sport down the line when some jobsworth decides to go and check what’s out there, and why. Don’t get me wrong, I’m no fan of the Aussie rules regarding firearms, particularly the control of semi-auto centrefires for feral pigs, but in all seriousness, do you really think this bloke lugs this rifle across the Outback trying to get onto a mob of camels? I spent many many arduous days crashing around in a Cruiser chasing camels, if I’d pitched up with a .408 TAC I would have been laughed off the face of the planet.

Sorry for the alternative point of view. No offense meant.

They are trying to solve a problem through legislation and policy that simply doesn’t exist. When was a 408 last used in a crime?
Never.

Impractical length, too long
Impractical weight, too heavy
Impractical caliber, too expensive

They smugly say that there hasn’t been a mass killing since the armistice & law change to justify their stance.
However, rarely a week goes by where someone isn’t shot in the western suburbs of Sydney, let alone the rest of the country. Australian gun crime is largely restricted to gang conflict and organised crime. The old adage of criminalise guns and only criminals will have them has certainly rung true.
The problem is still there despite their best efforts

What the....!

@ryansonghurst

"Why do you need ten .270's?"

Originally Posted by Frodo

@ryansonghurst

"Why do you need ten .270's?"

Why would you need ten of anything??? Correct reply is Why not? Do you own more than one pair of undies? You only need to wear one air at a time and they all do the same job. Same with socks. Do you need to watch a different movie or DVD? Why not watch the same one over and over? It does the same thing. We need more than one because variety is the spice of life.

Yes I have a favourite rifle that I grab most of the time, but there are others I like to use that do the same job. Some of them are better at different things to others but most could do most things as well.

If one becomes a master with a 300 Win mag does not mean they will be every bit as great with a 408, so clearly they would need to practise with both.

Another question for the aussie who sent the letters.....How many people have been injured or killed or even shot AT with one of these very powerful firearms BEFORE or after the law changes came into effect after Tasmania? I would suspect it will be somewhere around NONE. Then ask how many have been shot by Police in that same time frame. Suggest perhaps they disarm the police and it will stop a lot more people being shot.......That is the sort of logic they use.

haha..... "very powerful rifle" sounds like a @rickychen thread!

Originally Posted by 40mm

haha..... "very powerful rifle made out of bamboo" sounds like a @rickychen thread!

Fixed it.

Ineffective Aussie law in that it limits particular guns, but achieves no safety gain for the public, or police.

Didn't Oswald use a lightweight bolt action 6.5mm Carcano - not even with long range VLD bullets - round noses!

Now, maybe time to ship some police paperwork to car dealerships..... WHY do you NEED a car with over 125hp engine?

Originally Posted by Cordite

Ineffective Aussie law in that it limits particular guns, but achieves no safety gain for the public, or police.

Didn't Oswald use a lightweight bolt action 6.5mm Carcano - not even with long range VLD bullets - round noses!

Now, maybe time to ship some police paperwork to car dealerships..... WHY do you NEED a car with over 125hp engine?

I think that all those people being king hit/sucker punched by strangers for no reason would have avoided having their brains bashed in if the senseless and totally unnecessary sport of boxing was banned and all gloves and bags registered.

Originally Posted by 40mm

I think that all those people being king hit/sucker punched by strangers for no reason would have avoided having their brains bashed in if the senseless and totally unnecessary sport of boxing was banned and all gloves and bags registered.

Yes. Shooting is a non violent non contact sport. Ban contact sports!!!

Originally Posted by timattalon

Why would you need ten of anything??? Correct reply is Why not? Do you own more than one pair of undies? You only need to wear one air at a time and they all do the same job. Same with socks. Do you need to watch a different movie or DVD? Why not watch the same one over and over? It does the same thing. We need more than one because variety is the spice of life.

Yes I have a favourite rifle that I grab most of the time, but there are others I like to use that do the same job. Some of them are better at different things to others but most could do most things as well.

If one becomes a master with a 300 Win mag does not mean they will be every bit as great with a 408, so clearly they would need to practise with both.

Another question for the aussie who sent the letters.....How many people have been injured or killed or even shot AT with one of these very powerful firearms BEFORE or after the law changes came into effect after Tasmania? I would suspect it will be somewhere around NONE. Then ask how many have been shot by Police in that same time frame. Suggest perhaps they disarm the police and it will stop a lot more people being shot.......That is the sort of logic they use.

I totally agree. I was just joking (Ryan has a .270 fetish).

Although I don't know whether 'variety' is the reason that I own numerous pairs of undies.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Couple of comments on the above.

I've worked on the other side of the table to local, regional and central government on a bunch of stuff over the years - farming, mining, dog control law, roading, other stuff. There's a real devious side to the bureaucracy that you've got to be very very careful to avoid working up. When there's a bill being considered, and there's an expected public response, in today's Facebook / forum world the very first thing that the underlings do in the name of 'research' is hop onto the sites and copy and paste the choice comments from the antis and store them for future use. Now a lot of these underlings aren't like you and I, they live in townhouses in cities and use public transport and spend more than they earn on frivolous crap, silly coffee and drink strawberry flavoured beer in tiny glasses.

In the case of gun control, you can bet your bottom dollar 90% of the underlings will be on the 'control' side of the argument, and those that aren't quite sure will pretend they are cos they've got a promotion in mind. Seeing as how this issue is a really hot topic liable to generate significant political capital amongst the city dwelling lefties in AKL, WLGN and CHCH, only the best, most dogged underlings are put on the case. And their bosses order them to come up with a 'profile' of the likely opponents.

This profile will be a one pager that is thrust under the nose of the chief bureaucrat, who signs it off for inclusion in the dossier to the Minister. The Minister will take approximately 15 seconds to skim read this profile, see some of the choice comments about government, the police, Australia, etc, and think "Hmm, bogans and fuckwits, that shouldn't be too hard". In that moment, the die is cast. Any organised response to any proposed changes (e.g. SSAA) is then regarded as representing said bogans and fuckwits and these poor buggers are pushing a barrow load uphill all the way, on our behalf.

Don't think I'm joking about this. I've seen these dossiers. They manipulate and bend and misrepresent and pervert the truth to suit an agenda. It totally plays into the hands of the faceless grey bureaucrats, the abusive throw away one-liners, the rants after a few beers. They take what you've written on a public forum and copy and paste to suit their agenda. Once its in black and white, they've got you.

The only way forward is to drop the anger and vitriol and find a way to unite behind a lobby group that can do the job. A mini NRA without quite so much of their crap. But that is a very hard thing to achieve, here, in my experience. We're so parochial and mistrusting of the agenda of others.

I agree with what flyblown has said and others here with the same views. I too have seen the same truth bending from bureaucrats that left my trusting self in disbelief, astounded at how the Govt Minister could just completely ignore qualified scientific evidence I put in front of them. By the time we hear about it publicly for 'consultation' and make our submissions it is already a fate-acompli
Surely the answer is to make hunting sports so well thought of by the public that they can't be touched because of the feared voter backlash. An example to quote might be feral cats. We all know that they are the apex predator of our native birds and yet they don't get included in the lists of predators. No one in power is ever going to bring in a policy of intensive feral cat eradication and commit political suicide.
The NRA in the States has taken a different approach by having direct influence on the Govt. But certainly something needs to be done.
A point that I would like to make regarding the authorities fear of extremely powerful rifles come from a friend who served in the Paras and as a UN peacekeeper. He told me that when sniper / long range rifles became available in 338 lapua mag, quite a few border guards and police were shot with them. The 338 being powerful enough to shoot through body armour where rifles like 308 were not and from a considerable distance. This caused so much panic in Northern Ireland that if a car stopped short of the border the guards would open up on it often shooting innocent members of the public.

Originally Posted by Frodo

I totally agree. I was just joking (Ryan has a .270 fetish).

Although I don't know whether 'variety' is the reason that I own numerous pairs of undies.

If cleanliness is your issue, then two or three pairs washed every day / second day or will be enough to do the task. However it is not practical. So we own numerous pairs to last a week or more. Same for the rifles, it is more practical to have several so when one is down the other is ready.....

I am saying that their logic is flawed. Badly flawed. Especially seeing as so few Australians have been hurt by these (If you count recoil bruises as self inflicted and ignore them....) compared to other injuries by other weapons. (Knives, bats, fists, etc)

Cannot happen without registration. Which is why registration must be shown to be the ineffective pointless sotution that it is. It will only capture the law abiding firearms owners and the crims who are the ones shooting ach other will continue to own illegal firearms.