What I got from gunstuff as an email, police looking to charge for paperwork

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In the last 5 days information has come to light, that parliament are looking to pass an amendment to the Policing Act 2008 to enable them to charge for a number of Police “demand services”.

Though the Police have previously alluded to such a process being 'looked at', to date most firearms groups were not aware that this process had already begun.

The issuing of Permits to Procure and Permits to Import under the Arms Act seem to meet the criteria of 'demand services' as do applications for Firearms Licenses and Endorsements!

In Short - if you or anyone else in New Zealand wanted to import firearms, parts of firearms OR change/renew your firearms license OR apply for a permit to procure a pistol, MSSA or other restricted firearm in future - the Police are looking to charge us - the Taxpayers - for this service which is currently free.

This appears to be a blatant attempt at cost recovery from the shooting public who are already paying for the Police to provide these services as dictated by the Arms Act, and if it passes - this will only mean higher prices for shooting consumables, accessories, parts and complete firearms in future; as retailers will have no choice but to pass these increased costs onto consumers.

So make your voice heard and make a submission!

Shooters have until the 5th of February to send in submissions challenging any potential extra future charges!

We strongly encourage all shooters to make a submission!

The following is the link to the process of making a submission:

http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/sc/make-submission/51SCLO_SCF_00DBHOH_BILL13189_1/policing-cost-recovery-amendment-bill"

Yet more stealth tax by the back door.

Anybody know any more?

What is annoying is there is no list I can see of what will be charged and how much.

Steven, You will need to look at the amendment Bill when it goes to parliament to find out the proposed classifications and charging regime.
Its only a proposal at the moment. Its way off being a law.

Sounds about right to me.

Just before Christmas in Hastings they made the Firearms Officers position redundant and laid off the non sworn Staff member who has been doing all the firearms licencing since the 1980's.

The sworn officer who has picked up these duties has no idea how to perform these duties and it is plain these duties are not his first priority.

Cheers
Pete

Done.
The more people that make a submission now the better. Easyer to stop it now then later

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Originally Posted by P38

Sounds about right to me.

Just before Christmas in Hastings they made the Firearms Officers position redundant and laid off the non sworn Staff member who has been doing all the firearms licencing since the 1980's.

The sworn officer who has picked up these duties has no idea how to perform these duties and it is plain these duties are not his first priority.

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Yup, that's pretty common. Like traffic, front line Police staff are moving to jack of all trades rather than specific roles.

Now here's an observation.

Looking at it objectively, it's unrealistic to expect such a low cost of getting/having FAL to cover any eventuality of Police work we require, for 10 years. Despite the millions of dollars paid by the 200,000+ shooters received by the Govt by us for getting/having a FAL over the last 10 years , it's pretty obvious the actual $126.50 cost doesn't cut it. Nor the extra $200 for endorsements.

Like I said, if it's looked at objectively, the actual costs simply aren't being covered by the user. I'd expect the same model applied to a raft of other activities - fishing, drivers license, etc that has Govt, or council, or Iwi input, or any group that doesn't have unlimited funds.... Does't make it right, but it is the reality of the world we live in. A look at the health system is a great way to get an understanding of just how increasing costs just aren't being covered, and the money has to come from somewhere.

User pays.

Just an observation ;)

Well if they had left them as life time licences they wouldn't have all this extra work!

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Originally Posted by Kscott

Yup, that's pretty common. Like traffic, front line Police staff are moving to jack of all trades rather than specific roles.

Now here's an observation.

Looking at it objectively, it's unrealistic to expect such a low cost of getting/having FAL to cover any eventuality of Police work we require, for 10 years. Despite the millions of dollars paid by the 200,000+ shooters received by the Govt by us for getting/having a FAL over the last 10 years , it's pretty obvious the actual $126.50 cost doesn't cut it. Nor the extra $200 for endorsements.

Like I said, if it's looked at objectively, the actual costs simply aren't being covered by the user. I'd expect the same model applied to a raft of other activities - fishing, drivers license, etc that has Govt, or council, or Iwi input, or any group that doesn't have unlimited funds.... Does't make it right, but it is the reality of the world we live in. A look at the health system is a great way to get an understanding of just how increasing costs just aren't being covered, and the money has to come from somewhere.

User pays.

Just an observation ;)

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As long as any charges are REALISTIC (now there's a term that govt departments have a problem understanding), I see no real issue with a fee being charged.

Could someone who's a lot smarter than me make template of a simple submission so we can all easily stick our name on it and send it in?
Or not work like that?

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As long as any charges are REALISTIC (now there's a term that govt departments have a problem understanding), I see no real issue with a fee being charged.

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What is realistic though?

For example:
The CAA medical assessments recently went from $0 to $313, and that fee is either annual or biannual dependant on the applicants age for a Class 1 certificate.
The CAA hourly charge out rate also increased from $130/hour to $284.
Yes, these days the user pays, but those kinds of price hikes for a government department are a tough pill to swallow.

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

Could someone who's a lot smarter than me make template of a simple submission so we can all easily stick our name on it and send it in?
Or not work like that?

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If they receive submissions that contain the exact same text but are signed by different people then only the original submission counts. So you're best to write your own.

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Originally Posted by Ryan

If they receive submissions that contain the exact same text but are signed by different people then only the original submission counts. So you're best to write your own.

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Kindof... they have the option of counting it as only one submission (and they tend to stretch the definition a long way to avoid counting submissions against them), but if its agreeing with them they will still count them separately.

Who me, cynical?

I object to paying for a shitty service.

Well look at this this way, you already are.

The question is, will we be paying for a worser service :D

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Originally Posted by Moutere

What is realistic though?

For example:
The CAA medical assessments recently went from $0 to $313, and that fee is either annual or biannual dependent on the applicants age for a Class 1 certificate.
The CAA hourly charge out rate also increased from $130/hour to $284.
Yes, these days the user pays, but those kinds of price hikes for a government department are a tough pill to swallow.

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Well, those charges are FAR from realistic IMHO.
How much work is involved in issuing an import permit? Check license, write bugger all down, stamp, sign, done (never applied for an import permit so have no idea what they have)?
The current $200 (ish) for an E or B endorsement seems fine, how much more could it cost for what extra benefit?
If there are no dedicated arms officers, who is going to actually understand the law? I have experienced a couple of cops who don't know and shouldn't have ANY involvement with firearms at all (seen the roof above a shooting range after some cops have been there?)

If they charged me $30 for an import permit that was guaranteed to be approved the wads of cash would be coming at them too fast to catch.

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Originally Posted by outdoorlad

Well if they had left them as life time licences they wouldn't have all this extra work!

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Life time licences were never going to work and just as well too for the benefit of all of us. Take for example someone who has a FAL and who develops a psychiatric disorder and the police aren't notified. At least the ten year renewal system has some chance of catching up with the issue at the spouse, partner or next of kin's interview. Also, there is a lot of firearm storage out there that needs upgraded security and this will be picked up with the renewal application. We don't need more criminals with stolen firearms.

The cost of a FAL application and subsequent issue is peanuts in NZ and a lot of work goes into it backstage. I doubt very much whether the fee charged covers half the administration and vetting costs involved. As you know, new firearms applicants have to attend the Mountain Safety Council lecture and pass the Firearms Code test. The running of the MSC is done by volunteers and lets be grateful it is.

10 ring & kscott have hit the nail on the head with this one.

Yes it is going to be a user pay system. And the vetting costs currently charged outweigh the amount of administration that goes into it.

Times are changing and we need to change with them.

blatant attempt at cost recovery ? Seriously - it's the cost of business these days.

The thing I am not happy about is a) getting it done efficiently but also the hourly rate. ie this is seen as a profit centre and not a cost to be met. I expect for instance that gun cabinet inspections/visits re going to add $100+ to the licence alone. As an example the WCC (wellington city council) charges a woping fee for inspectors, way above their hourly rate and they take zero legal responsibility. Oh and another when we went to 10 yr driving licences the Govn wanted to charge $100 and used cheap eye testing machines I think WP objected and got the cost cut to $60. However I for one cant pass the machines so I spend $120 to get a proper optician's opinion my eyes are OK to drive.

Yup, at least $100 to a FAL I feel. There's a lot more $$ to an employee than just an hourly rate.

Budgeting $50/hour for a low/mid level AO, and at least $50/hour to get them to come to your house and inspect. Unless the Police are expecting them to take the bus out :D

If the increased cost means a quicker and better service for permits, etc, that may be a good thing. But as always, the devil is in the detail.

Just deregulate. Cut red tape. Cut cost.

How much of an import permit fee actually go into the police fund?

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Originally Posted by Beavis

Just deregulate. Cut red tape. Cut cost.

How much of an import permit fee actually go into the police fund?

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$0

It all goes back into the government coffers, they then dish out next years budget to various departments, some get an increase, others less, and then there are the frozen budgets.

I do agree steven that cost met for services is a good thing. But whatever goes through parliament like most things, will be watered down.

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Originally Posted by Survy

$0

It all goes back into the government coffers, they then dish out next years budget to various departments, some get an increase, others less, and then there are the frozen budgets.

I do agree steven that cost met for services is a good thing. But whatever goes through parliament like most things, will be watered down.

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This is where I take issue with it. It is the govt's responsibility to distribute funds. The govt gets money from speeding tickets, court action etc. It doesn't go straight into the police's pocket. So from the sounds of things, the govt isn't allocating enough funds to make the firearms system tick over. Perhaps they could give them a percentage of the money made from infringements. Surely should cover a 10 min job writing out a permit.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

I believe it goes "user pays, and pays, and pays, and pays..............". "User pays" is abbreviated.

Do they need this money after all the $30 tickets for 1km over the speed limit they gave out?

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So you know how many tickets were actually issued for people 1km over the speed limit ? ;)

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Originally Posted by Beavis

This is where I take issue with it. It is the govt's responsibility to distribute funds. The govt gets money from speeding tickets, court action etc. It doesn't go straight into the police's pocket. So from the sounds of things, the govt isn't allocating enough funds to make the firearms system tick over. Perhaps they could give them a percentage of the money made from infringements. Surely should cover a 10 min job writing out a permit.

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Yeah but do that and next week the people who walk the Heafy Track will want $$ that was received from FAL owners for track and hut maintenance.

You're right though, there simply isn't enough resources allocated to the Police to do their job. So either more money needs to go to them, and that has to come from somewhere, or we expect the Police to do more and more, with less.

Or option C and the organisational requirements for firearms goes to a separate (private) organisation that reports directly to the Police. Which frees up the Police to do other things, but will cost us shitloads more in $$ (as well as open a different can of worms)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P38

Sounds about right to me.

Just before Christmas in Hastings they made the Firearms Officers position redundant and laid off the non sworn Staff member who has been doing all the firearms licencing since the 1980's.

The sworn officer who has picked up these duties has no idea how to perform these duties and it is plain these duties are not his first priority.

Cheers
Pete

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Well that's just great. Hastings Firearms Officer was sharp, and the poor bugger picking up that workload is gonna have a lot to do....

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Originally Posted by Kscott

Yeah but do that and next week the people who walk the Heafy Track will want $$ that was received from FAL owners for track and hut maintenance.

You're right though, there simply isn't enough resources allocated to the Police to do their job. So either more money needs to go to them, and that has to come from somewhere, or we expect the Police to do more and more, with less.

Or option C and the organisational requirements for firearms goes to a separate (private) organisation that reports directly to the Police. Which frees up the Police to do other things, but will cost us shitloads more in $$ (as well as open a different can of worms)

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I'll do all the permits for free. How's that. Just give me a stamp for my signature.

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Originally Posted by Beetroot

Could someone who's a lot smarter than me make template of a simple submission so we can all easily stick our name on it and send it in?
Or not work like that?

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Has anyone managed to knock something up yet, I'm keen to submit something and will just edit and reword a template and submit. Unfortunately, don't have lots of time to read through the paperwork.