Thread: Why frontline cops should be armed

Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

So ignoring the tube vs the world side of the argument and summarizing my position:

Do I think NZ will ever introduce concealed carry? No, not a chance in hell.
Do I think NZ should introduced concealed carry? Yes, it's worth discussing even though it's unlikely to happen.

Why should we do this? Because every person has a right to self defence and that right is worthless if you don't have the tools to defend yourself. NZ is a safe country so generally this isn't something we have to worry about but there will definitly be people who are at risk and places that are more risky. This applies to both NZ police who should be expected to go into dangerious situations without the tools to defend themselves and the public of NZ (acknowledge that to own a firearm you need a FAL).

But wouldn't there be chaos with people shooting each other everywhere? This is the "think of the children" side of the argument and it comes down to culture. Every week there are groups of FAL holders who gather to shoot clays, targets, animals etc. During these events there are arguments etc and all the normal stuff that happens between people. Nobody gos and grabs a shotgun off the rack and starts shooting people cos thats just bloody stupid. Our culture says thats unacceptable and if you break that there are peanalties from both the social group you are in and the law. In the states if you have a CC permit and you pull your gun out and wave it around then you are breaking the law and will likely loose your CC permit. There is a culture around what is acceptable and what is not.

So what would change if in the unlikely event we were allowed this. Many pages ago somebody said that if a fight happend between a bigger and a smaller person then it would quickly descend into a gunfight. I see that as a good thing, if you are about to be beaten (potentially killed) by someone physically stronger than your self shouldn't you be allowed to defend yourself? The other effect is that people who beat others for fun would think twice about it cos they might have a gun...

In NZ if your house gets burgled then you are only allowed to resist if you life (not property) is in danger and then only with an appropriate level of force. If they have a baseball bat you are not allowed a knife etc If you grabbed the bloke and locked him in the bathroom until the Police arrived you would likely be charged with kidnapping.

In the USA there are a lot less burgleries because people who break into houses get shot. This depends on the state but if someone has broken into your house then you don't have to prove that your life was in danger, you just get to shoot them.

Now a liberal would say that a tv is not worth a human life and thats all bad but I say screw them, I want to live in a world where people who break into houses are more worried about their safty than the people living in the houses.

All of these opinions apply to the police as well. I have no problem with them being armed when the situation requires it and I think they shouldn't be visibly armed when it's not required. I don't think they (or anyone else) should have to risk their live due to lack of access to the right tools.

Would I use a firearm to defend myself in NZ? No because the legal peanalties are set up to discourage this and given storage requirements you would never be able to access it in time anyway. I would have to be convinced that myself or my family were about to die before I would risk my freedom that way. They can have the TV.

This is how far NZ has swung back the other way:
*In the live coverage of the chch earthquakes members of the public where tearing apart the rubble to try and rescue pople. Police officers stopped rescuing people and then threatened the members of the public with arrest unless they stopped cos the public is not qualified to rescue people and stopping that is more important than saving lives.

*If you shoot a burgler then you will end up on trial for murder.

*If you hold a burgler captive then you will end up on trial for kidnapping.

*A helicopter who defies a medical ban on flying to save the lives of two people is facing up to 10k in a year in jail.

*You can't import pepper spray because apparently thats dangerious and nobody needs to defend themselves.

What the hell happened? When did we turn into a nation of politically correct wusses?

When Mr Helen Clark ruled our world and started engineering the guts out of us.

Years ago unfortunately.

Congrats on the trout-bloody great work.
Thanks for the kind words Brads- I did just that and with a coupla ales Ive built meself anew DIY gunviceas i cant find me other bastard.
this comes about because we are having to clear out my garage (which features 25yrs of hoarded treasures) before its demolished and the section cleared in order to build two brand new Lockwood homes.we'll be selling one to clear our mortgage -so the big hecienda willbe ours mortgage free!yipeei fucking ah!
massive -a quiet word in your rather large lughole
Son-Dont call me "Tube"-its fucking gone OK big fella !!!!!its a relic with the arsekissers on the other side.
Im not agin the world Massive,I simply look at it through a different set of glasses
You know exactly where I fucking work and how long etc,so dont attempt to take the piss.
Nuff said big fella -hope youre girdin the loins for Xmas and the hoped for influx of geese.
me Im in hog heaven on ferals at present ,whilst the black&white cuzzies commute overhead.
Im preparing the buffet for the canadas -Twill be like Brutus and Julius Caesar!

Auckland

Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

Auckland

say no more

my thought is that if some of you were placed in a position of being confronted by a screaming foaming violence driven human out of the blue youd probably be changing your daks sooner or later ,and unfortunately I could also see a coroners report or two. Concealed carry - more trouble than its worth IMO

I agree tussock.
I don't think anyone could add anything else to this thread which hasn't been covered already.

Should all frontline cops be armed fulltime? Fuck no. No, no, nooooo!

Just, no!

For every retarded thing I have ever seen a civilian do, I have multiple examples that I have observed a cop do. In uniform. While on the job.

and the baggy jockeys -designed to let the boys swing free and accomodate a big hairy paw to scratch em if required!

Here's my 2 cents worth.

I know many people in my town who will not come into town for a show or a meal after dark on a Sat night, due to the incidents of being accosted by two or three knuckle draggers who's intent is to make life unpleasant for them, if they don't make a compulsory contribution for their next drug purchase!!!!!

IF ( a big "IF" ) properly police approved FAL holders had the lawful ability to carry a concealed short piece???? The knuckle draggers would never know whether their next client was carrying or not. A fairly good disincentive I'd have thought. Even if you weren't carrying a piece you'd be fairly sure that only a completely whacked out knuckle dragger could make life unpleasant for you. But then he may well be so spaced out that the problem could be resolved by a good swift kick in goolies!!!!!

Home invasion protection is a different matter. You just need to do what you have to do in the circumstances that you're faced with, do a "kahui" when the fed's arrive and follow your lawyer's advice on what to say & when to say it!!!

Originally Posted by top gun

Here's my 2 cents worth.
IF ( a big "IF" ) properly police approved FAL holders had the lawful ability to carry a concealed short piece???? The knuckle draggers would never know whether their next client was carrying or not. A fairly good disincentive I'd have thought. Even if you weren't carrying a piece you'd be fairly sure that only a completely whacked out knuckle dragger could make life unpleasant for you. But then he may well be so spaced out that the problem could be resolved by a good swift kick in goolies!!!!!

I'm not sure concealed carry is the solution you think it is.

Organised thugs can/may disperse themselves so as to overwhelm the victim before they could respond by shooting.
It may actually produce a hit first policy from the thugs - not sure if that's what society would want.

From what I have seen on emails I get from friends in the US and on the U.S. Firearm forum that I'm on; the "not knowing" deterrent works quite well. I don't think too many of our knuckle draggers are armed with a firearm,a knife maybe, but being the cowards that most of them are, the sight of a short piece with BIG hole in the muzzle would make them wet their pants & run for it.

I was particularly trying to point out the deterrence factor of the knuckle draggers not knowing if you were carrying or not. That's supposing we ever got a law passed that would allow properly licenced FAL holders to do so IF THEY WISHED. I'm NOT holding my breath waiting for our elected superiors at Fort Fumble to allow us such a right!!!!

Another point of view is police are usually responding to incidents.... as in a crime has already happened or is under way.
A few police are pistol endorsement holders.
Pistol endorsement holders have to shoot a minimum of 12 times a year. Also within that you have to get holster qualified for each holster and type you use.
Arguably pistol holders have 12 times the training as police.

Front line police MAY have to do their test shoot annually. As in it is possible for a police officer to be armed to shoot at a person, yet not have touched a firearm for over a year.
Also police being under funded aren't necessarily armed. all cars are equipped for carriage but only 1/3 of patrol vehicles have firearms at any time. Again you don't know which vehicles are armed.

Bottom line is if police are in danger enough to be armed full time when on the job it's logical to suggest the same risk is present when off duty.
I believe if police were to carry full time then there should be the option for those with pistol endorsements and holster qual to obtain CCW permits.

Originally Posted by nseagoon

Pistol endorsement holders have to shoot a minimum of 12 times a year. Also within that you have to get holster qualified for each holster and type you use.

Arguably pistol holders have 12 times the training as police.

There is considerable difference between drawing a loaded pistol from a holster on a range, and carrying a pistol because some deranged P fuelled fuckknuckle wants to smash your face in.

Attending a pistol range doesn't equate to training, it's just attendance. And besides, on a range do something wrong and you just get a DQ. Do something wrong in the real world and you have an endless run of media, court and private prosecutions to deal with.

Police are already sufficiently armed for New Zealand IMO. They have a shit job to do, are constantly criticised and don't have the support/budget from their boss to do the job properly.

Give em all full auto 308s I say, big black ones with banana mags...yes I know 308s dont need a banana mag because they dont have much case taper but they should have them anyway and on one of those slings like the army boys use and a glock on one hip and a dirty harry on the other....it wont make a bloody bit of difference because whenever you actually need a cop they are all to busy handing out traffic tickets.

I used to respect my local cop when I was a kid, he sorted out issues caught criminals and yes booted my arse a few times.

I and most other Kiwis have no respect for the police anymore for a multitude of reasons that dont need listing here...we all know them, the last thing I want is a gun on every hip.