Why frontline cops should be armed

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Originally Posted by Banana

FAL holders (b endorsed in particular) hold the required attributes for the purpose of CC, and any deficiencies can be made up through classes and training. Concealed carriers wouldn't be getting the power and responsibility of a police officer, so directly comparing attributes is pointless.



I think it's the exact same issue. The only gain police are getting from full time arming is immediate access to a firearm for their own self defense. Why should only the police be afforded that ability. Increased risk doesn't make their life any more valuable.

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Crazy.

My employer is currently in the process obtaining CC permits for 3 different countries.
The one proving most difficult is the one anyone would think would be the easiest.

I am against any form of public arming in NZ. But I would like to be able to hunt with a pistol legally.
I believe police should be and will eventually be armed.





Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Savage1

The WINZ incident was committed by a lone person with mental health issues, it's a one off or extremely rare, not a daily occurrence. Who got called in to deal with that guy? Police.

Because I don't know is exactly why I'm neutral, there is no contradiction in that statement.

You stated "if you look at the safety statistics", now you're saying you don't know the statistics, that gives me great confidence in what you post.

I wasn't forgetting anything, I never heard of the CHCH incident, are you saying there has never been an accidental discharge on a civilian range? I talk to a lot of cops and don't hear of many injuries and incidents.

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Of course the police got called in to deal with him. Nobody else in the country is allowed to carry an effective means of defense and if they used it then it's likely that they would end up on the wrong side of a court case even though their intentions were to defend life and property. Basically what you are advocating is disarming the public and then arming the police more in order to protect a disarmed public.

I may have used the wrong word when I said satistics. My info came directly from the blokes on the RO course and it wasn't second hand. I don't think they release public stats on police range accidents but if they do let me know where they are. To the best of my knowladge there has been one firearm related injury at a civilian range.

Here is an article detailing the eight accidential dischanges by police between 2010 and 2013, it doesn't make for great reading.
Police shooting still unresolved a year on | Stuff.co.nz

He was being helped to his feet when a police officer's Bushmaster rifle discharged. Pere spent several weeks in Wellington Hospital recovering.

The officer involved has since returned to work on restricted duties, and was stood down from the armed offenders squad.

That doesn't contain the Chch one so I will see if I can find that.

Why would anyone need to have the need for concealed carry in NZ. NZ is a safe place to live.

People here say the shootings would increase if the police were armed, what do you think would happen if the public could carry guns. Homicides would increase because if someone got into a disagreement with someone bigger than them, then guns would be drawn and someone would be shot.
And then more people would be in jail for murder/manslaughter.

And how many people who would conceal carry guns would be killed by their own guns, or even lose them. Then the shitfight begins when the criminals get them.

Not to mention, gangs would definitely carry and to increase their stocks, they would target CC people.

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Originally Posted by jim160

And how many people who would conceal carry guns would be killed by their own guns, or even lose them.

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Thats a risk for armed police officers as well mind you... one of my cop mates told a story about a colleague who attended a domestic at a known gang house, no backup available so strapped the pistol on for insurance. Predictably there is a bit of aggro, he is well outnumbered and gets smacked around and thrown back outside. Doesn't even realise his gun is gone until he's dragging his bruised ass back to his car afterwards and one of the older, wiser residents quietly hands it back to him. Could have been far worse!

He tells me that as a cop your greatest weapon (and greatest liability if you use it wrong) is your mouth, and his first option is always to try and defuse a situation by talking it down. Personally I'd like to see that attitude continue in the police force - obviously there are some situations that do require force, but increasing the level/frequency of police being armed seems likely to also increase the authoritarian 'do what I say or else' attitude some police officers demonstrate at times, and the 'them and us' response from the public.

jexla -youve been on" ride alongs" -ever been the one on point ,the one who has to make that decision.
jesus wept the boys in blue have had to deploy tasers x3 on our site and the fucking post mortems ,/arse covering documentation would filla bloody rubbish skip.
me -i worked with the bloke who was present in 2/3 occasions when the situations went"current"and ohms law applied-ohm=resistance -the more resistance shown the bigger the dose!.
he certainly had no qualms about police actions given the weapons presented were a shard of glass like a dagger and screeds of airborne human blood -exactly who was responsible for what in hindsight was a clear as"dogpaddling through a lake of sloppy dogturds" in his words.
yep that desription is just as apt in the auckland courier driver tragedy.
just a pity the arsehole at the centre is set to spend his doubtful existence in taxpayers expense! sidney &savage seem to me to have the most cogent views on the prospect.

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Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

Of course the police got called in to deal with him. Nobody else in the country is allowed to carry an effective means of defense

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Ah there are at least two others organisations that can and have been called upon... But yes the police will be the first responders in all cases, well unless the country turns to shit!

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Originally Posted by Shooter

Ah there are at least two others organisations that can and have been called upon... But yes the police will be the first responders in all cases, well unless the country turns to shit!

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Who are they. I only thought the police enforced the law.

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Originally Posted by jim160

Why would anyone need to have the need for concealed carry in NZ. NZ is a safe place to live.

People here say the shootings would increase if the police were armed, what do you think would happen if the public could carry guns. Homicides would increase because if someone got into a disagreement with someone bigger than them, then guns would be drawn and someone would be shot.
And then more people would be in jail for murder/manslaughter.

And how many people who would conceal carry guns would be killed by their own guns, or even lose them. Then the shitfight begins when the criminals get them.

Not to mention, gangs would definitely carry and to increase their stocks, they would target CC people.

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If it's a safe place to live then front line police don't need to be armed...

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Originally Posted by jim160

Who are they. I only thought the police enforced the law.

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:) you will work it out

I recon we should show the world we are hard cunts and have unconcealed carry :)

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Originally Posted by kotuku

jexla -youve been on" ride alongs" -ever been the one on point ,the one who has to make that decision.
jesus wept the boys in blue have had to deploy tasers x3 on our site and the fucking post mortems ,/arse covering documentation would filla bloody rubbish skip.
me -i worked with the bloke who was present in 2/3 occasions when the situations went"current"and ohms law applied-ohm=resistance -the more resistance shown the bigger the dose!.
he certainly had no qualms about police actions given the weapons presented were a shard of glass like a dagger and screeds of airborne human blood -exactly who was responsible for what in hindsight was a clear as"dogpaddling through a lake of sloppy dogturds" in his words.
yep that desription is just as apt in the auckland courier driver tragedy.
just a pity the arsehole at the centre is set to spend his doubtful existence in taxpayers expense! sidney &savage seem to me to have the most cogent views on the prospect.

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I'm sorry but I can't read any of that without getting a headache, get some punctuation and I might take you seriously.

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Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

If it's a safe place to live then front line police don't need to be armed...

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My thoughts exactly. Stupidity is starting to show...

lets face it folks -we have the unarmed bobby as a legacy from the days of our colonial era when we were subservient to the UK&followed their social mores &traditions.
unfuckingfortunately thosae social mores &traditions have progressed massively (backwardsIMHO)and today the feral reigns supreme .the days of the 6'6''rugby playing plod giving you a short sharp size 11 up the arse and threatening to "have a word with ya dad lad". we have in the past 2 decades and by&large due to some socially antagonistic experts bred a whole generation of sperm byproducts who belive theyre entitled to it&now". fuck society and what they think ..its me me me.Iknow my rights cause they told me so"and so on.

social media fed em violence and plenty of it as a way to get what they want-tacitly sanctioned by our own indifference, long on the talkfest short on the bloody act ion to halt this corrosive attitude and hence we arrive at this moot point.
me _if hindsight is so fucking valuable why dont we all have a spare set of eyeballs in our arsecheeks!!
massive -cmon man youre more bloody socially aware than what youre writing-takin the piss aint doinanyone any favours.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

I'm sorry but I can't read any of that without getting a headache, get some punctuation and I might take you seriously.



My thoughts exactly. Stupidity is starting to show...

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And so is arrogance....punctuation ...really.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

I'm sorry but I can't read any of that without getting a headache, get some punctuation and I might take you seriously.



My thoughts exactly. Stupidity is starting to show...

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Dont take the piss lassie or I will let loose. Ignorance is not bloody excuse on this forum -consider yourself warned young un!
Sorry my arse

Obviously you like to think ya got it sussed well just sit quite take a deep breath and think on this
40yrs ago an old bloke gave me this wee gem to think on and I think on it every day
"tis the old dog who walks the footpath "
"the pups they run the street"

Dont bother replying in haste -you may well find Ive already bared me teeth .Take ya time and have a wee think then apply the conclusions youve reached to the point of debate -you may very well be suprised at the conclusions you reach,i
f so just open a new folder in the computer between your ears and call it lifes new experiences!
finally seasons greetings to you asnd yours and may all your days be happy ones.

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Originally Posted by kotuku

Dont take the piss lassie or I will let loose. Ignorance is not bloody excuse on this forum -consider yourself warned young un!
Sorry my arse

Obviously you like to think ya got it sussed well just sit quite take a deep breath and think on this
40yrs ago an old bloke gave me this wee gem to think on and I think on it every day
"tis the old dog who walks the footpath "
"the pups they run the street"

Dont bother replying in haste -you may well find Ive already bared me teeth .Take ya time and have a wee think then apply the conclusions youve reached to the point of debate -you may very well be suprised at the conclusions you reach,i
f so just open a new folder in the computer between your ears and call it lifes new experiences!
finally seasons greetings to you asnd yours and may all your days be happy ones.

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You realise your posts are largely incomprehensible nonsense, right?

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Originally Posted by gimp

You realise your posts are largely incomprehensible nonsense, right?

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I have no problem. Mind you it can be a good ploy to make things difficult to read as then you really have to read them to understand.

It is a curly topic though and there is no clear clean cut answer as we do not live in a perfect world. There are enough crooked/bad/incompetent cops in the mix to not want them all armed. There is also the vast majority that would be fine. Then there is the criminal element that really don't give a toss about anyone else, and with some of the drugs like P they are unpredictable and very dangerous.

As far as the argument about citizens not being armed because they do not have the experience and training; this could be applied to the Police as well. Many of them do not and will not have the skills required to safely carry. Many also do not have the skills to negotiate situations that would be better handled my someone with mental or social worker training so would arguably be better leaving those situations to professionals in those arenas. The reality is we just about need cars with a copper, mental health worker, medic and fire fighter. This is obviously totally impractical.

The solution is not going to be at all easy. Perhaps step back a little and get back to a justice system that avoids the criminal sector from getting to such a state rather than the legal system that we have now that favours the criminal. The analogy of the guy at the top of the cliff stopping people jumping rather than the ambulance at the bottom.

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Originally Posted by kotuku

Dont take the piss lassie or I will let loose. Ignorance is not bloody excuse on this forum -consider yourself warned young un!
Sorry my arse

Obviously you like to think ya got it sussed well just sit quite take a deep breath and think on this
40yrs ago an old bloke gave me this wee gem to think on and I think on it every day
"tis the old dog who walks the footpath "
"the pups they run the street"

Dont bother replying in haste -you may well find Ive already bared me teeth .Take ya time and have a wee think then apply the conclusions youve reached to the point of debate -you may very well be suprised at the conclusions you reach,i
f so just open a new folder in the computer between your ears and call it lifes new experiences!
finally seasons greetings to you asnd yours and may all your days be happy ones.

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You are clearly already loose in the mental department, I'll leave it at that.

P.S go see the doc and ask him if he thinks you're fit to still have a FAL.

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Originally Posted by Pengy

And so is arrogance....punctuation ...really.

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Yes! Punctuation is a clear sign of intelligence or lack thereof!
Not to mention even with the correct punctuation it still spits up the vial nonsensical crap coming out of some mad mans head.

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Originally Posted by gimp

You realise your posts are largely incomprehensible nonsense, right?

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But apparently calling him out on it is ignorance. Interesting....

If I had been drinking tonight I would suggest you are a fwit Jexla. But I haven't, so I will leave it at that

:O_O: ouch this has gone of the rails:on fire:

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Originally Posted by Pengy

If I had been drinking tonight I would suggest you are a fwit Jexla. But I haven't, so I will leave it at that

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Think what you will.
Haven't seen you add anything to the conversation.

I really hope we can keep the Police as they are, not openly armed. I think we have a relationship with our Police force like no other Country that I know.

On the topic of CC I have to say that although I have no problems with firearms :ORLY: even in a public place but I prefer not to carry one. It is an extra stress and responsibility. On the other hand if I was living somewhere that was particularly violent? Maybe.

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Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

Of course the police got called in to deal with him. Nobody else in the country is allowed to carry an effective means of defense and if they used it then it's likely that they would end up on the wrong side of a court case even though their intentions were to defend life and property. Basically what you are advocating is disarming the public and then arming the police more in order to protect a disarmed public.

Exactly, Police get called to deal with it, it's their job, not the average member of the public.

You obviously know nothing of the law and how it is applied, I recommend you don't comment on what you don't know about. Have you ever even read S48 of the Crimes Act? Let alone looked into case law surround possessing offensive weapons?

When and where did I mention, let alone advocate, disarming the public? Stop making up my opinion for me in order to suit your argument, I said nothing of the sort.

I may have used the wrong word when I said satistics. My info came directly from the blokes on the RO course and it wasn't second hand. I don't think they release public stats on police range accidents but if they do let me know where they are. To the best of my knowledge there has been one firearm related injury at a civilian range.

Statistics is a pretty specific word, hard to get that one wrong unintentionally. So the info came straight from civilians that wouldn't have been present at the time of the incidents? But wasn't second hand? I still don't know of any Police related firearm injuries on a range. You can't compare what happens off range, apples with apples.

Here is an article detailing the eight accidential dischanges by police between 2010 and 2013, it doesn't make for great reading.
Police shooting still unresolved a year on | Stuff.co.nz

He was being helped to his feet when a police officer's Bushmaster rifle discharged. Pere spent several weeks in Wellington Hospital recovering.

The officer involved has since returned to work on restricted duties, and was stood down from the armed offenders squad.

That doesn't contain the Chch one so I will see if I can find that.

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Another sensationalist news article, much like some parts of your posts, you can't tell me there hasn't been any AD/NDs on civilian ranges? The guy getting shot in the back was tragic and steps have been taken to remedy the cause of that accident.

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Originally Posted by MassiveAttack

If it's a safe place to live then front line police don't need to be armed...

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Because Police are the ones that are deployed into the small unsafe areas trying to keep NZ safe, stop being arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

But apparently calling him out on it is ignorance. Interesting....

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Well when you can understand the message but choose to ignore it because it lacks punctuation, that means you are choosing to remain ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Banana

FAL holders (b endorsed in particular) hold the required attributes for the purpose of CC, and any deficiencies can be made up through classes and training. Concealed carriers wouldn't be getting the power and responsibility of a police officer, so directly comparing attributes is pointless.



I think it's the exact same issue. The only gain police are getting from full time arming is immediate access to a firearm for their own self defense. Why should only the police be afforded that ability. Increased risk doesn't make their life any more valuable.

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Massiveattack directly compared them stating FAL holders carry the same attributes, as I was merely pointing out he was a long way from the truth.

I know a lot of FAL holders that most certainly don't hold the required attributes, but then that is just my personal opinion, just as your ideas on what attributes are needed are just your opinion.

It's not the same issue at all, I see it as a selfish argument the 'Police shouldn't be armed because I can't'. It's got nothing to do with you being armed, it's about whether they need to be armed or not.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

Another sensationalist news article, much like some parts of your posts

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Speak for yourself! ;)

But mine is first hand personal experience :thumbsup:

No I can't sleep, yes I'm bored.

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Originally Posted by Savage1

But mine is first hand personal experience :thumbsup:

No I can't sleep, yes I'm bored.

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What is this sleep thing you talk about? I recall it some time before kids arrived. Think it was some sort of feathered creature.

I agree with @30calman that it would be good if we could sort our society out so that the Police are not required to routinely carry firearms. That is the crux of the issue. Then we could maintain our generally extremely good and easy relationship with the Police, and this relationship works in both directions.

There will always be an element of our society that will never toe the line, but the smaller that group is the better. The more people we can persuade to contribute to the country the better.

Thanks you for your support gents.as for the catty remarks Ive had worse ! My original POV still stands.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Yes! Punctuation is a clear sign of intelligence or lack thereof!
Not to mention even with the correct punctuation it still spits up the vial nonsensical crap coming out of some mad mans head.

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Vile, not vial and you missed the apostrophe on man's

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Kotuku's turn of phrase shares a lot with the stream of consciousness method used by James
Joyce who wrote "Ulysses" which is considered to be one of the high water marks of the English language.

Attacking his punctuation style misses the wider point and comes across as petty.

If you are trying to convince people of your argument, a little charm goes a long way..

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Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

:O_O: ouch this has gone of the rails:on fire:

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Refer post # 111.

B

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Originally Posted by shift14

Refer post # 111.

B

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Yep. Pretty much.
And no one here will have any say on the outcome.

Only time will tell.

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Originally Posted by jim160

Yep. Pretty much.
And no one here will have any say on the outcome.

Only time will tell.

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That's what makes it so much fun end of the day it makes No difference anyway :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Yes! Punctuation is a clear sign of intelligence or lack thereof!
Not to mention even with the correct punctuation it still spits up the vial nonsensical crap coming out of some mad mans head.

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Punctuation is certainly not a sign of lack of intelligence. It certainly can be a sign of Dyslexia, as suffered by those that you would call un-intelligent, such as Albert Einstein, Leonardo da Vinci and Richard Branson, to name a few.
Punctuation, or lack of it can also be a sign that the writer does not have English as their first language.
I respectfully request you think before you type.

My take, for what it is worth, is that I don't believe cops routinely carrying firearms would make things any better or any worse in NZ.

I have to admit though Pengy, Jexlas' comment made my morning.

To criticize a members' writing style as a symptom of unintelligence, then to misspell "vile" as "vial" had me in fits of laughter :D

I think Jexla needs to focus :)

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Originally Posted by Gibo

Yeah great outcome aye. Just look at some of the comments in this thread. The public being armed would be a lot more worrying to me than the police.

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Right on Gibo! There is the distinction of HAVING the said firearm and having it ready when you NEED it. There is no point in having one at all if it isn't reachable - therefore the public would be better off not having the associated risks of storing them.

My 2c. Cops having bushmasters in their cars is BS. All or nothing. Arm them, train them or don't do either. There will be consequences either way that we will just have to deal with. Somebody mentioned the killing of the courier, which I want to point out was caused by a highly trained individual and some extreme bad luck. Shit happens sadly