Thread: Wtf

Originally Posted by ExPoh75

I'll tell you what justice isn't Sidney....the 10 years jail served of a life sentence by the 16 year old low life who shot my father in the back of the head, killing him. It affected my whole life, but it seems that shouldn't matter. Instead we should think of the perpetrator's well being and rights above those of the victim and family. I wish I had been able to get up in court and express how this mongrel's actions had affected my family's lives.

"Do we now have to sentence people according to how the victims feels appropriate? Is that sort of emotional decision making how we should run a justice system?"

Why not? Lawyers constantly appeal to the emotions of judges and juries. How many times do we have to hear of lawyers trying to mitigate the perpetrator's crime by stating 'the offender had an unfortunate upbringing, was socially and economically deprived, used alcohol/illicit substances etc. etc. ad nauseam. I believe the courts really are doing a disservice to the victim, family and society if not taking into account how it affects them when sentencing the perpetrator.

I am so sick and tired of bleeding hearts sticking up for these scum. Do the crime, do the time. No second chance as far as I am concerned. I am a big proponent of 'an eye for an eye', but I am a law abiding citizen that expects the courts to punish the offender accordingly. Unfortunately I now have little faith in the legal system as I believe it is out of touch with community expectations. The pendulum has now swung too far towards upholding the rights? of perpetrators as against society as a whole.

Am I emotional/bitter? Too right I am.

Pete

Pete...

You are correct, sentencing isn't justice. You could say that sentencing is the execution of justice and it is a component of the system of justice.

I don't minimise the way your lives have been affected in any way. But how would the way that you feel, and the way that you are affected by the loss of your father, actually change if the kid had got 20 years or the rest of his life, or even been hung by his neck?

I am not sticking up for anybody, accountability is the issue, but justice is simply being held accountable. The sentence may be more or less equitable/fair in your opinion, but you are only considering it from your perspective. Being a judge requires balancing perspectives, the victims, societal and the offender... whether you understand that or not this place is a better place because of it.

There are plenty of other places in the world to live that don't balance those perspectives, but you and most of us would not want to live there.

What you are talking about is how that balance is prioritised or weighted. That is always up for debate, but in spite of your understanding there is significant legal opinion that considers that our justice system has become too weighted towards the victim, and this distorts the application of the law.

I am always interested in the "rights of the criminal/perpetrator" comment. People don't seem to connect that these are actually the same rights that apply to ordinary citizens, until guilt is established. To reduce the "rights of the perpetrator prior to conviction" is to also reduce the rights of everybody else. I'm certainly not comfortable with that, nor should anybody else be.

Originally Posted by Sidney

Pete...

You are correct, sentencing isn't justice. You could say that sentencing is the execution of justice and it is a component of the system of justice.

I don't minimise the way your lives have been affected in any way. But how would the way that you feel, and the way that you are affected by the loss of your father, actually change if the kid had got 20 years or the rest of his life, or even been hung by his neck?

I am not sticking up for anybody, accountability is the issue, but justice is simply being held accountable. The sentence may be more or less equitable/fair in your opinion, but you are only considering it from your perspective. Being a judge requires balancing perspectives, the victims, societal and the offender... whether you understand that or not this place is a better place because of it.

There are plenty of other places in the world to live that don't balance those perspectives, but you and most of us would not want to live there.

What you are talking about is how that balance is prioritised or weighted. That is always up for debate, but in spite of your understanding there is significant legal opinion that considers that our justice system has become too weighted towards the victim, and this distorts the application of the law.

I am always interested in the "rights of the criminal/perpetrator" comment. People don't seem to connect that these are actually the same rights that apply to ordinary citizens, until guilt is established. To reduce the "rights of the perpetrator prior to conviction" is to also reduce the rights of everybody else. I'm certainly not comfortable with that, nor should anybody else be.

Fair enough comment Sydney. I apologise if you think my comments were a direct attack on you personally, that was not my intention.

I was trying to give an example of where, in my opinion, the legal system let not only my family but also society down.

Anyway we seem to have drifted away from the main thrust of the original post so I'll leave it that.

No issues Pete.... I know and have seen....

Found this quote which is worth reflection...... the balance thing again.......


Mercy in the absence of justice leads to weakness. Justice in the absence of mercy leads to tyranny. St Augustine

Originally Posted by Sidney

No issues Pete.... I know and have seen....

Found this quote which is worth reflection...... the balance thing again.......


Mercy in the absence of justice leads to weakness. Justice in the absence of mercy leads to tyranny. St Augustine

“Forgiveness has nothing to do with absolving a criminal of his crime. It has everything to do with relieving oneself of the burden of being a victim--letting go of the pain and transforming oneself from victim to survivor.”
― C.R. Strahan

Originally Posted by Tahr

“Forgiveness has nothing to do with absolving a criminal of his crime. It has everything to do with relieving oneself of the burden of being a victim--letting go of the pain and transforming oneself from victim to survivor.”
― C.R. Strahan

Yesssss I was trying to find this!

Not trying to diss the victims here, but what sentence would it take? I doubt, if they allow themselves to continue dwelling, that a life sentence or hanging or shooting or anything like that will make themselves feel better until they decide to feel better and move on.

We are much better as people to take a deep breath and be sad, but know that we can't control other people's bad actions and continue with our lives.

Originally Posted by Tahr

“Forgiveness has nothing to do with absolving a criminal of his crime. It has everything to do with relieving oneself of the burden of being a victim--letting go of the pain and transforming oneself from victim to survivor.”
― C.R. Strahan

Originally Posted by Dougie

Yesssss I was trying to find this!

Not trying to diss the victims here, but what sentence would it take? I doubt, if they allow themselves to continue dwelling, that a life sentence or hanging or shooting or anything like that will make themselves feel better until they decide to feel better and move on.

We are much better as people to take a deep breath and be sad, but know that we can't control other people's bad actions and continue with our lives.

A bit like that story about the two wolves fighting.


It is a very complex issue with no single answer. Some will straighten up quick sharp, others will not. There is more to it than just leaving the legislature, police and judicial system to deal with the problem. It is a society problem; it is our problem. Everyone is the victim and everyone needs to be part of the solution. It costs everyone in increased insurance costs or just accepting the inevitable losses.

Look at why so many are heading down this road. Find this out and fix the problems there and things will improve. This thread is really about the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and deciding which side of the beach at the bottom to park. The majority of the problems stem from unemployment/financial stress, lack of father figures/role models in their lives and our tendency to not have such strong local communities. We need more people to put in an effort in their local communities and dare I say it better/new government approaches to economic development/welfare that will benefit the whole community.

And yes, I'm sorry, I was a bit of an internet troll stirring the pot earlier to bring out a few more views.

Originally Posted by Dougie

Yesssss I was trying to find this!

Not trying to diss the victims here, but what sentence would it take? I doubt, if they allow themselves to continue dwelling, that a life sentence or hanging or shooting or anything like that will make themselves feel better until they decide to feel better and move on.

We are much better as people to take a deep breath and be sad, but know that we can't control other people's bad actions and continue with our lives.

I see your point, Dougie, but as in all things human, it is not quite so simple...most people simply need a sense of justice to prevail...and it is the sense of justice that eleviates much of the pain and devastating loss...knowing that there is some justice in the whole ghastly abhorrant matter...as a democratic country, we have a perception and an expectation that justice and lawfulness will serve us and protect us...

The families are not the victims, the person lost is the victim; the family are the ones with holes in their hearts...which only TIME will ease...

Originally Posted by EeeBees

I see your point, Dougie, but as in all things human, it is not quite so simple...most people simply need a sense of justice to prevail...and it is the sense of justice that eleviates much of the pain and devastating loss...knowing that there is some justice in the whole ghastly abhorrant matter...as a democratic country, we have a perception and an expectation that justice and lawfulness will serve us and protect us...

The families are not the victims, the person lost is the victim; the family are the ones with holes in their hearts...which only TIME will ease...

Well, sometimes time never heals. Often because we are hooked into wishing for a better past. Peace is likely to elude us until we let that futile hope go, and begin to construct a more hopeful future ourselves.

And trying to stay beyond the dirty P word here - now remember who I am and where I am coming from as well, I'm not the most clued up on this stuff but do have an interest and am coming from a genuine place - is prison and serving sentences not just about punishment, but also about the safety of others and the rehabilitation of the offender?

Like...trying to help them to 1) not be in the position again and 2) if they are there again, make a better decision?