hang on, so explain to me how you are going to "defend yourself" with a knife without pulling it and brandishing it toward this attacker ? are you just going to tell him/her that you have a knife and they will mysteriously stop attacking you ?
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sidney, dude ! come on...
the argument they are putting forward is like saying well it's ok for me to drive at 200 km/h because if you don't want to then you don't have to... actions have consequences. saying something like CCW is ok, coz you dont have to do it if you dont want to completely ignores the majority of the population that specifically do not want every second or third person walking around with a concealed firearm. and forget about tactical or self-defense training, what most folks need is to train the muscle between their ears to think clearly and calmly during a crisis.
i am more than happy living in a society where we have a small armed police force, responsible for maintaining order, as opposed to every tom, dick and harry walking around packing. the cops here are very aware of the extremely serious repercussions of shooting someone, and in the majority of cases would rather try to calm the situation than escalate it. that is the balance I prefer, like I said early on, there are loads of places around the globe where you can live with alternate regimes, personally the setup in NZ works fine for me :)
Take this
Attachment 9841
Add two teaspoons of this thread ....
Now you have what this is Custard .. or just a simple desert ... :D
And the winner is ..... :roll:
Happy, I think the technical term is "a cluster of custard" :D
Waited for this thread to run its course................i lived in california for 8 years, an illegal alien (love that term) i had a Glock 17 that my 'legal mate' (green card) bought for me!
we only ever shot it at the local range's (indoor & outdoor) i had a 35 round mag (yes, thirty five) for it that i was allowed to 'brandish' at both ranges, even though (at the time)
california state law prohibited any mag over 15......how, because it was bought before the ban!!!!.......thats how fukin ridiculous the gun laws are over there, almost every gun law
be it state or federal, can be circumvented LEGALLY, so as for 'crims'...........the good ole US of A is totally fuked, dont expect it to change in your grandchildrens lifetime....
pandoras box has had the lid ripped off by the hinges.......Obama or anybody else is only paying lip service....there will be plenty more school, cinema, work ect shootings......ITS NOW PART OF THEIR FUKED UP CULTURE, THATS WHY I GOT OUT!!!!!!
Why do we end up constantly debating this topic. Honestly you're a fool if you think that the way it is is fine; you're a fool if you think that you can change it. Barking at each other isn't going to change much. Really none of us have a clue what the f**k we're talking about. Each side is sure they are right and the other is biased. Anyway personally i think self defense ownership is bullshit. If someone has the means to kill you, and is going to kill you, they will kill you. No James Bond shit, by the time you've drawn your weapon (if they intended to kill you) you're dead. plain and simple. Aside from that do many of us have the training that makes us quick enough to react to a situation like this and react appropriately. Try this: You're walking by a house and are armed. A man runs out with a knife covered in what looks like blood, stops screams I'm going to kill them, and starts to run back inside. What do you do, let him run away and maybe kill whom ever or what ever, or do you shoot the man and maybe save a life by taking one.
Please feel free to continue offering opinion not subject to you own advice then :D...Doesn't matter what people want, that is purely a emotional cultural response...
The issue as debated which you completely have missed, is that the antis use exactly the same argument that could be used to promote CCW. And guess what... they are both correct.. but where the balance may fall in terms of loss of life, or deterioration of society is entirely debatable.
What we end up with as a result may or may not be desirable, and we currently don't choose to go down that road. Personally I don't want to. The process of the shift is often worse than either position. I was a police officer, I left the police in 1990 partially because I believed that we were rapidly heading towards having to be armed as a matter of course..that would have changed the dynamic of interaction with the public to such an extent that I was unwilling to stay... thankfully I am still wrong about that happening..
Having an armed population is unlikely to promote a more trusting culture, as evidenced by the paranoia exhibited by the average american. However on the other hand attempting to deny people the lawful right or the ability to protect your own person or life, or the life of any innocent that you are capable of protecting - is unconscionable. And please don't not assume that the police can or even want to achieve that these days in this country. Response and prevention is a lot further down the list than collecting traffic revenue, and suppressing response from those trying to protect themselves.
Whether you understand it or not, these are the two realities that exist. Reconciling them is the issue. Thats when it gets difficult..
So far I condense this thread down to:
Anti-CCW: Someone with a CCW might shoot me or someone else, I don't like people wanting to CCW because they already have the mindset that they want to kill
Pro-CCW: Want to carry to diminish the chance of being killed or seriously injured by a violent criminal, should they ever be confronted by one, realize that when the shit hits the screw, a cop won't be there to save you.
+1 Tussock, I worry about my partners safety more than my own
Out of your friends that were sexually assaulted, how many had alcohol in their system so couldn't have had a pistol on them? How many were assaulted by a person they know? Which is by far the most common situation. How many were in completely avoidable situations such as walking alone in the dark through a park? I'm in no way implying that it was their fault. Sexual attacks on random sober females is actually very rare, they are normally by a person who is well known to the victim. I don't know where you got the high rate bullshit from.
At least mace, which is effective at close range(not sure where you got that bullshit from), could be used and would put the attacker off of his game, even if you cop some yourself it has still done its job. But you all seem to be uninterested in a alternative to a gun, which could only be used in very rare situations.
The Police do the best they can with what they have, if there is a real threat of somebody being attacked then the law backs them in defending themselves.
In theory I agree with you, but in reality it won't work in our society in my opinion and would cause a lot more problems than it would solve.
Examples of abuse of a CCW:
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and, most notably,
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just going to leave this here to lighten the mood
http://i.minus.com/ibeA6Dbe39sM9e.gif
Ah cool so we've been reduced to being labeled as "anti" or "fans of passive citizens"...
Guess I'll have to add it to the collection :D
Name calling really elevates the level of the debate boys :wtfsmilie:
Beavis: wow, saying something along the line of "I'm right and you're wrong" (your "condensing of the thread) does not really constitute an objective discussion
Tussock : I'm still keen to hear how you propose using a knife for self-defense without pulling it :P Mate, if you want to live in Ethiopia, Somalia, Afghanistan or another shithole where mob-justice and anarchy is the current form of government, pls be my guest :D
You might want to read some of savage1's posts.
This format is too untidy to have a proper discussion and ccw will never happen in NZ.
My stance is that there are no particular downsides to appropriately licensed and trained citizens carrying guns for self defence, even though there isn't necessarily a hugely glaring need. We all wear seatbelts, have first aid training, keep fire extinguishers in the home, etc. Right? Same same.
In a handbag? they'd never find it
(handbag carry sucks)
not many guys that would admit of a public forum that they carry a handbag gimp :P but hey, all power to you :D
P.S. that kitten is definitely not "fit and proper"...
I had an experience that totally changed me from a LMOE (last-man-on-earth gun fanatic) to a regular 'leave it in the safe' kind of gun owner. It was just on dark and i was leaving my mates house, went down the stairs and i got my keys out. The rattle saved my life. Just as i neared my car a scumbag in a hoody charged me, armed with a 10' screwdriver. I had 1.5 seconds to react, luckily my brain didnt say "find a weapon". Somehow i sidestepped him and lent backwards.
No amount of weapon training or owning 500 firearms would have helped. My point is, you may not get a chance so don't place all your faith in your marksmanship.
The hood evidently just wanted out and I'd inadvertently blocked him in while he was trying to break into my car. 10 seconds later i was telling myself to stop chasing him HAHA. Adrenalin makes you do dumb things eh.
I went to the supermarket and my house didn't go on fire while I was out, so I don't need to know first aid.
Two options option 1=your armed with a shoty said fulla comes out of house with blood on knife...........swing shoty like a baseball bat in self defnce job done!
option 2=your armed with a pistol said fulla comes out house with blood on knife..............tap tap into forehead fulla hits ground like sack of spuds dies you plead he was running at me with a knife that had blood on it so i acted in self denfence......first time offender 12 months home detention job done:thumbsup:
some of you guys are talking hypothetical bullshit! were all gonna act diff and untill your in that situation your just guessing.
Can i still have my casull or are we past that now :)
Our secretary is from SA, she left because her dad was shot dead in a breakin, the third time with armed thieves I think she said. In another incident she shot a mugger in the arm....apparantly on purpose...(the arm). Given she is very good looking I wouldnt have wanted to give odds it was only her wallet they were after. Thank F* we are not in a country like that. Look at the US statistics on "self defence" 800,000+ per year.....10,000+ deaths, many accidental...just as mind boggling. When all is said and done we are remarkably safe in NZ compared with the rest of the world, yet have reasonable gun laws. Personally I think our biggest risks are actually a) sensationalist seaking media looking to sell air time and advertising space and not in anyway be rational, fair or honest and not the laws or the cops. b) Pollies, at some stage of course a nutjob will go shooting crazy here and then our Pollies will be in a lolly scamble for votes to make our voters feel safe, it wont be rational, logical or fair.... c) ourselves, looking at the incidents in NZ I think we should be doing a better job of policing ourselves, our mates and promoting our rights, sounding like the US NRA nutjobs isnt a good look.
Greg Carvell is someone interesting to chat to on this topic, as he knows 1st hand on how it works in NZ
The whole in the door has been repaired but the one in the glass is there as a reminder
And that really is the key. The "average, ordinary" person out there is NOT mentally prepared. The are situationally unaware. But it is these kinds of people who we are talking about arming with concealed pistols.
Not Beavis who is going to train like crazy, or Tussock who is supremely confident, it is Moe and Joe who may or may not have control over their emotions, may or may not be drunk or stoned etc.
Some of you guys seem to find the prospect of a random violent criminal scary enough to want to go down the route of CCW. I've lived in a place where this was the norm, it is not fun... There are negative and positive sides to each argument. For each life saved story Tussock has, I am sure we can find a child killed by finding his dads poorly secured firearm, or daughter shot mistakenly as she crept into the house long after her curfew story.
I find the prospect of the "average" citizen out there being armed just as scary or even scarier than the "random active shooter" :)
But you did comment about your view of the (poor) firearm skills of the police, didn't you ? Now they have specific training both with firearms and with dealing with crisis situations, and get to practice (at least the people skills side) almost daily. Be interesting to hear what training regime you propose and would be willing to accept for Joe Blogs before he is allowed CCW, seeing as you don't seem to be a fan of "government control".
Or you could say the average citizen has actually failed society, depends on how you view life Tussock :)
You sure you want to do this ? :D
Guns in Ethiopia: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law
Rate of privately owned firearms : Ethiopia is ranked at 174 out of 178 countries...
Tussock, with all due respect, you are talking bullshit ;) You want to hold Ethiopia up as an positive example ? What are you smoking mate ? Human rights, governance etc. Are you serious :D
you told me to look at Ethiopia instead of America, that's what I did...
now you are telling me to look at America :wtfsmilie: :D
I though we all at least agreed that we would NOT look at America, because for a variety of reasons they have such a pandoras box of craziness around firearms that none of us want to follow their example ?