Thread: English & Spanish side by sides

A thread on English & Spanish side by side shotguns , engraving ,marbled walnut stocks , history of guns and makers and your photos of your guns and the work you are doing to restore your beautiful side by side be it a best gun or just your regular carry that you value .

I hope you all that enjoy this subject support it with loads of info and posts of your guns and story's of the old guns

I know there are some passionate people here who like myself have a love of the fine shot guns built many years before we were born . I am certainly no expert in this area but now would use in the field nothing other than my side by sides which are now starting to mount up "most cheap guns purchased for between $250 -$500 although I am yet to have anything of real note as far as a best gun goes -one day !

I thought this could be a good thread dedicated to old guns, restoration and the pains each of us goes through to make better a pitted barrel or a oil filled stock or any other fault that can be improves either by a competent smith or by a loving DIY man .

My latest purchase is from a well known London gun maker Charles Lancaster . A side by side , straight stock double trigger with a round box lock action . This gun weighs around 6.5 pounds pounds with 30 inch barrels .
The barrels need some attention and I recently purchased a bench grinder and a buffing pad and block abrasive to cut the rusty pitting from the surface of the barrel .I am a total novice but have observed another doing this and had a shot so will go with caution . I will strip the stock of its oil with a heat gun and what ever chemical will give me a hand - sadly the wood on this gun isn't worth a shit being totally without any marbling and couldn't be less boring . There is no engraving on the action of this gun and only the makers name appears -not unattractive though mainly due to the very attractive rounded shape of the action .The forgrip is a classic narrow piece of would with well worn checkering which will need cleaning of oil and re-checkered . Hopefully in time I can show what Ive done and if its a dogs dinner or semi respectable .

I saw this piece on buying British side by sides guns on an overseas forum a forum the other day and also thought it worth reposting so I hope you enjoy -the commentator knows his stuff

As many of you maybe aware, prior to ditching London life and emigrating to the sticks, I was the manager of a large gun factory in Hammersmith (the one beginning with P).

Anyway I get quite a few requests and PMs on here asking for advice, usually from folks looking to purchase their first proper side by side. So to save me replying each time, I thought I'd chuck a few top tips up here.

Obviously with the wealth of shooting knowledge on here, it would be cool if other shooters could also whack some tips up and turn this thread into a useful tool for everyone's benefit.

First things first, you need to decide whether you want a boxlock or a sidelock, what's the difference? Well in reality, not a massive amount, sidelocks look nicer, hold their value better, for sure you'll look like the lord of the manor when you go on a game shoot if that's your thing. Beware though, they are more complicated (read expensive) than boxlocks to maintain. Getting one restocked can often cost more than the gun itself is worth. Purdey, H&H or Boss will sting you for around 12 grand for new woodwork (yes really) so if you do go down the sidelock route, ensure the wood is in good nick and that it fits you, (more about that later). A tidy Birmingham boxlock will cost you less than an average London sidelock and probably give you less hassle in the long run.

Having said that, if you can afford a sidelock, it's worth it merely for the smug factor and the fact that it will probably increase considerably in value.

So now you've decided what you want, it's time to think about what you will use the gun for primarily. If you're going to be doing a fair bit of trekking around and carrying the gun, it's probably best to avoid a 10lb pigeon gun for instance. A good weight to aim for in a 12b side by side is somewhere between 6 and 7lbs and will be good for most things.

In my personal opinion, barrel length is largely irrelevant, if they are properly made, the gun should shoot well regardless. Having said that, I personally wouldn't get anything shorter than 28" or longer than 30", for resale reasons.

Stock measurements are vital, if you already have a gun you shoot well with, try and get a new gun with similar stock measurements. If you don't know your measurements, a gunfit at a reputable shooting ground is worth every penny. 14 1/2" long is about average, I'm 6'2" and shoot best with a 14 3/4" stock. Obviously bend and cast measurements will also affect things, but length is most important. Your chances of finding a second hand gun with your perfect measurements are very slim, so aim for something as close as possible, failing that go for 14 1/2" as it will be easier to sell in the future.

Makes to look out for: like cars, there are hundreds of different makers, obviously London guns are the holy Grail, but Birmingham, Edinburgh and Newcastle all had decent makers at certain periods throughout history. Do your own research on the different makes and find one you like. Remember many of the boxlocks you see were knocked up by BSA and Webley but have different makers names on depending on who finished them as such don't be afraid of buying a gun you've never heard of, there is a strong chance the barrels and action came from one of the well known Birmingham factories.

Top tip from me would be to check out Atkins. He was an ex Purdey man who went solo and the few guns I've seen of his are as good as any similarly aged Purdey but considerably cheaper. Good lick finding one.

So once you've found your gun there are a few points to look out for when assessing it's overall condition.

No big pitting or heavy scratch marks in or on the barrels.

It should go without saying that rust is to be avoided.

Barrels should be straight and free of dents and 'bruises.' To check hold them up to the light at about half arms length from your face, look down the bore and angle the barrel until you see the reflection of the light running down the length of the barrel. Rotate the barrel looking on both the inside and outside for any points where the beam narrows or thickens. If you own another shotgun, practice looking down those barrels to get your eye in. It takes time and at first you probably won't have a clue what you're looking at.

Ribs are fitted properly, i.e. no air gaps between the rib and barrel, in an ideal world they should be airtight to avoid moisture ingress. Older guns tend to have a bit of leakage, a sure sign of this is if a small hole has been drilled on the bottom rib or butt piece. This is the bodgeneer's way of sorting the problem out, it's done so you can squirt oil inside the barrels and keep them lubed up.

Plenty of wall thickness in the barrels is pretty vital, you don't want the expense of replacing them.

Tight joint between barrels and action, no rattles when it's open, no daylight between the barrels and the action face when it's closed. A little daylight between the flats of the barrels and the well of the action is ok.

Electors work and are in time together, take snap caps with you to test this. They should have enough throw to pop the caps out over your shoulder and both should land roughly in the same place. NB: Non electors don't sell as well but are worth looking at, they're especially good on walk up shoots where you need to pick up your cartridges.

While you've got the snap caps out, dry fire the gun a few times, make sure the trigger pulls aren't unduly heavy, see that it opens and closes nicely. If it's a Purdey style assisted opener, check this feels correct and isn't clunky, it should be easy to open but will be hard to close. If it's an H&H 'Rogers cocking' style it won't be as smooth.

Check that the strikers (firing pins to a military man) retract after each shot and sit flush with the action face. If they sit forward or rattle about, the return spring or striker itself might be broken.

Wood has no cracks or other heavy damage, a little wear is nice but you obviously want something with plenty of life left. Avoid very dark wood, especially if it is really dark around the hand, this can be a sign that oil has seeped in. There should be zero movement between the wood and the action.

Check the gun balances as close to 1/4" forward of the crosspin as possible, obviously stocks/barrels get changed over time and this isn't always possible. Close to the centre of the crosspin is OK, but of the balance point is just slightly forward of it, the gun will feel more agile in the swing.

Check the stock measurements feel comfy for you. Don't feel foolish swinging the gun around in the shop and pretending to shoot some birds. Make a few bang noises if you want, you'll feel more of a dick when you go on your first shoot and find the gun isn't comfy for you. Take into account what clothing you usually wear, if you always wear your favourite Barbour when you shoot, wear it when you try out the gun.

If it has interchangeable chokes, check they are properly lubricated and easily come out, you don't want one's that have rusted in.

Try to avoid single triggers, they always go wrong on older guns and are a nightmare to maintain.

That's about it really, obviously finding a perfect gun will be difficult and expensive but try to avoid any with really obvious snags. Some of the points above are fairly minor and you can probably live with them, just be careful, second hand gun dealers are like car dealers, many will **** you over given half the chance.

Have a skeg at the auctions too, often bargains to be had there.

If you require any tips on purchasing an OU or a foreign gun of any kind, please refer to my sig block.

Elb I once owned about 30 old English SBS which I collected over many years, I have sold them on over the passed 20 years and have only two left, my great grandfathers single barrelled Hollis hammer gun and my William Evans 1904 SBS, I'll post some photos later

I once had a beautiful Miroku u/o grade 3/5 benalli mi90 amongst others, all gone and I dont miss them at all . For me a time came where I realized I valued different things being a hunter and killing was defiantly on the bottom of the list. Dogs and old traditional things taking a more senior place in the list nowadays -bloody great getting older and appreciating things less commercial . I look forward to hearing about and seeing your guns .

Much of my love of guns are old English shotguns and double rifles, they are absolutely works of art,

I have done quite a few shotguns and at present have a Greener in the checkering cradle. The barrels have the look of damascus which are still to be blued but the action and associated trigger guard etc are complete. Heres a few photos for you, I hope. I was told that this was a greener as well but its not.






This one here shows before and after and I never did find out who the maker was.There was aname engraved on the action, one T R Mathews not Google didnt work for this one. Check out the butt plate


Before





After

those barrels on the box lock look very nice ! I have wondered if you can have the Damascus pattern on normal steel barrels ? Dont quote me on this but I know it is true for some Damascus guns that you can shoot a light skeet load through them . My Bonehill has a Damascus pattern also on the barrels and I shoot a light non black powder load through it .The checkering on the first gun look nice , not real fine but well done .
The hammer gun looks like you have done a fair bit with the blueing of the action and barrel ? did you have this done or have a shot yourself -- trouble with some photos is they make an old gun appear blued when they possibly are not a before and after shots haha . The engraved butt plate is interesting and something you would imagine the Germans to do rather than the English ??? I did a seach on the name also but came up blank .Obviously some parts of shotguns were sent to other factories to be made and returned to the Brand owners factory and assembled under their name even if the part has the actual manufacturer on it

I dont own either of the shotguns and the work was done in one case for a friend and in the second case for a customer. I think I have completed around 15 shotguns and rifles both bluing and stock jobs so far this year so it gets a wee bit busy in the shed at times.

Yep you can have the damascus pattern (patina?) on normal steel. As for the checkering, the panels on the double barreled shotgun were a recut of the original pattern and are flat topped cuts. Not that great in the field as the grip is not that great but thats what the English did.

I've got a db hammer gun with a similar butt plate but it's Bland and sons. I was told they were trade guns made with the retailers name on them.
Brought it for $5 second hand in the chatams 1967. I haven't used it since I ran out of rabbit board ammo.

yes,i love my sxs.i have a good collection. just want to add a couple of comments to those of el barrocho. if you are buying an older gun,check carefully for pitting in the chambers and barrel. if the pitting is deep then this has a marked effect on the worth of a gun.minor pitting can be shot as is, or honed out but this is expensive and skilled work.hold the barrels by the hook and ring them.they should sound clear.if they sound dull,check out the rib.if it is loose, then is likely that there will be other issues, ie hidden rust between barrels, or someone has araldited up a loose rib. avoid such a gun as to get this work properly done is expensive and very skilled work.if you really like a gun get a real gunsmith to check it over. i have had a lot of fun shooting my guns.for upland i like 26 inch barrels,30 inch are fine for waterfowl.i use guagemates 12-16ga, these allow me to use 16 ga ammo and these are very effective. the guagemates fit into all my sxs so i can shoot hammerguns etc. and be legal. also many sxs stocks are oil soaked. if you submerge them in white spirits for a month or more then let it dry out.then submerge it in boiling water with a bit of detergent for 5 minutes at a time, you will be suprised how clean it comes up and how all the bumps and dents have disappeared.many a good gun was made outside london. nothing beats shooting than using a piece of real history between your hands to do it.it adds so much to the experience.

Yep the first shotgun shown had a loose rib but the customer didnt want to get it fixed and can understand that, as you say it is expensive plus it would have needed another blue job for the barrels. That in itself is no great drama but is a pain in the arse. I only noticed it when I could see water seeping out when the barrels came out of the hot water tank
I do have set of barrels from a Greener that are stuffed and they also have a loose rib so will give that a try later on in resoldering that rib, cant stuff it up any more

I took the JD Dougal that I posted on another post here to Robert Dollimore and he noted the barrels had come unstuck but someone had tried a repair .He made a comment about the rust causing holes that you might not see until they breach the wall -that would be very dangerous .Also he said about "tinning" the barrels where there is a line of solder the length of the barrels between them and the rib which means the rust cannot penetrate that area -a poorly tinned gun would likely rust if there was any parting of the tubes and rib .

Originally Posted by lophortyx

yes,i love my sxs.i have a good collection. just want to add a couple of comments to those of el barrocho. if you are buying an older gun,check carefully for pitting in the chambers and barrel. if the pitting is deep then this has a marked effect on the worth of a gun.minor pitting can be shot as is, or honed out but this is expensive and skilled work.hold the barrels by the hook and ring them.they should sound clear.if they sound dull,check out the rib.if it is loose, then is likely that there will be other issues, ie hidden rust between barrels, or someone has araldited up a loose rib. avoid such a gun as to get this work properly done is expensive and very skilled work.if you really like a gun get a real gunsmith to check it over. i have had a lot of fun shooting my guns.for upland i like 26 inch barrels,30 inch are fine for waterfowl.i use guagemates 12-16ga, these allow me to use 16 ga ammo and these are very effective. the guagemates fit into all my sxs so i can shoot hammerguns etc. and be legal. also many sxs stocks are oil soaked. if you submerge them in white spirits for a month or more then let it dry out.then submerge it in boiling water with a bit of detergent for 5 minutes at a time, you will be suprised how clean it comes up and how all the bumps and dents have disappeared.many a good gun was made outside london. nothing beats shooting than using a piece of real history between your hands to do it.it adds so much to the experience.

Is that right you can submerge the stock for a month in white spirits without any damage tot he wood ?? I would like to do this with my Charles Lancaster as it could certainly loose some "black " out of the wood . Today I had a chat with a smith friend of mine about getting ridd of any pitting from the outer barrel . I mentioned I had purchased a bench grinder which I was going to mount a buffing pad with cutting compound to buff the pitt out as I had seen done --well fuck me days did I get an earful !!! He informed me that no good gunsmith does this and they all use files and I guess fine abrasive paper with a final finnish of 400 grit . I started my barrels with 320 grit and have removed most of the black and pitts for that matter and over the next few days will bring the Finnish to a 800 grit shine before having them hot blued .
Does anyone know what barrels can and cannot be hot blued because of the way they were done and their age ??or doesn't it matter

My old SxS.

A bit of history on E Patton the maker of this hammer gun above that I found on another forum .

Edward Paton was born in 1819 in Dublin, Ireland. In 1843 he took over the business of Robert Ancell of 44 George Street, Perth, this business had been founded in 1833.

Edward married in about 1846, the name of his wife is unknown. They had a son in 1847, Edward L Paton (Edward II) (b.1847 in Malta, and a daughter, Emma (b.1849 in England and notably not in Scotland!). No other children have been traced. It seems likely that Edward (I)'s wife died soon after 1949.

Reportedly, in 1854 Edward (I) made Charles Frederick Walsh a partner in the business and the firm became Paton & Walsh. This has not been confirmed, but on 12 September 1856 Paton & Walsh patented a type of rifling for a winged or ribbed bullet. On 12 December 1856 they patented an apparatus for charging and capping the nipples of firearms, this consisted of a metal tube containing another metal tube with a needle actuated by a spring. It injected powder into the touch-hole after a miss-fire.

Reportedly, Walsh left the partnership in 1858 and the firm again traded as Edward Paton.

In the 1861 census Edward (I) was recorded at an unspecified address in Perth with Edward (II) and Emma. At the time he employed 7 men and 2 boys. The firm became known for their conversions of muzzle-loaders to breech-loaders.

In about 1865, if not before, in addition to the main shop at 44 George Street, Perth, Edward opened a branch at Highland Club Buildings, Inverness. How long this branch remained open is not known.

In about 1870, Edward (I) was appointed Gunmaker to His Royal Highness The Prince Consort.

By 1870 the firm had been re-named Edward Paton & Son; it seems that Edward (II), ran the Inverness business while Edward (I) moved to London to open a new shop at 108 Mount Street, Grosvenor Square. At this time the firm finished guns for Boss & Co. This London shop may later have been managed by W H Watts, formerly a gunmaker in Winchester, Hampshire, and later a gunmaker at 54a Marshall Street, London. In the 1871 census Edward (II) was recorded in Inverness, he described himself as a master gun maker employing 6 men and 3 boys.

In the 1881 census Edward (II)'s address was given as 13 Athole Street, Perth. By this time he was married to Mary (b.1855) and their children were, Edward L (Edward (III) (b.1873), Mary E (b.1875), Robert M (b.1876), George S (b.1878), and Harry A (b.1879). All were born in Perth. The same census records Edward (I) as a widower living at 10 Argyle Road, Ealing, London. He described himself as a gunmaker employing 7 men and 3 boys (presumably one of the men was employed in London and the remainder and the boys were a duplication of the employees in Scotland).

In 1882 in Inverness, the firm opened a branch at 37 Church Street (one report states 38 Church Street). In about 1886 the Church Street branch moved to High Street (no number stated), Inverness.

The London gunmaker, Stephen Grant, was recorded in about 1883 at 39 High Street, Inverness. This branch of the firm was reportedly managed in the late 1880s by Richard Henry Grant who, in 1889 would have been only 17 years old. The branch probably closed in about 1890. It would appear that either at the same time or shortly after the branch was established, Stephen Grant and James Woodward formed the Grant & Woodward shooting agency. In doing this Grant & Woodward would have been in direct competition with Edward Paton, this would not have pleased the Patons.

In 1884 in London, Edward Paton's shooting agency and gun making business moved to 99 Mount Street. In 1885 they moved to 88 St James's Street.

In 1890 David Crockart of Perth bought Edward Paton's business at 44 George Street, Inverness. The Inverness branch appears to have closed at this time.

In the 1891 census Edward (I) was recorded as an estate agent (not retired estate agent) aged 72, he was living in lodgings. There appears to be no census or other record of Edward (II) or his wife, Mary, in Scotland or elsewhere.

It would seem that Edward (I) retired or died in the 1890s or early in the 1900s, possibly in 1902 because in that year the business moved to 35a St James's Place, and an additional office was recorded at 5 St James's Place. It seems that Robert Michael Paton took over the business. In 1902 Stephen Woodward retired, at some time he had taken over from Charles Woodward.

In 1929 the firm moved to 37 Bury Street.

In December 1943 the firm was sold by Robert Michael Paton for £250 to Stephen Grant & Joseph Lang Ltd, they amalgamated it with their own Grant & Woodward shooting agency which was re-named Paton Grant & Woodward.

In 1959 Strutt & Parker, Lofts & Warner (estate agents) bought the business.