Shotgun shooting like a solid round?

I bought an old hammer SxS shotgun at our gun show the other day.
I tested it out on a pattern board with light cowboy rounds and it went straight through cleanly like a solid slug, made a perfectly clean hole in the board.
This was at about 20 metres. I shoot further back at around 30 metres and I could hardly see any pellets on the board.
I dont know if its got an oddball choke on this thing, but its stamped on each barrel with the number 13, which im assuming is the choke size, but not sure what it actually equates to, or if this even has anything to do with the choke, but my other Belgian hammer gun is marked in millimeters for each choke.

The no 13 is the actual gauge of the barrel,measured in lead balls that diameter to the pound.
Stamped on the flat of the gun barrel by the proof house.
Just to be clear, are you saying it puts all its pellets in one hole at 20mtrs but at 30mtrs hardly a pellet on the board?

The 13 refers to the gauge round ball to be used in solids with that gun, it was std practice to use one gauge smaller to avoid embarrassment with tight chokes.i
Target products saloon cowboy action stuff gives a pattern width of about 3 foot at that range with a 16 inch cylinder bore.
What's the ammo any chance it could be a solid or are you getting confused by a hole made by the wad?

most cylinder barrels expand by ABOUT an inch per yard......your shot isnt steel thats rusted together perchance????

At 20 yards you should have about a 12 to 15 inch pattern. I suspect the single hole was made by the wad. Post a couple of photos of the gun and the muzzles.

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Originally Posted by Skeetshooter

The no 13 is the actual gauge of the barrel,measured in lead balls that diameter to the pound.
Stamped on the flat of the gun barrel by the proof house.
Just to be clear, are you saying it puts all its pellets in one hole at 20mtrs but at 30mtrs hardly a pellet on the board?

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OK, i wasnt sure how it was marked on these older guns.
Yes, I fired it at a corflute sign at various distances, it made a perfectly clean hole, typically the wads spin round and are sideways by the time they hit anything. A clean hole seems a bit surprising I thought.
I compared to shooting point blank and the same results with the hole was the same. I will have to go and get some photos of the target when I get a chance, I dont have it on hand.
Somewhere between 20-30M I appear to be getting some pellets make holes on the board, but it wasnt many.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The 13 refers to the gauge round ball to be used in solids with that gun, it was std practice to use one gauge smaller to avoid embarrassment with tight chokes.i
Target products saloon cowboy action stuff gives a pattern width of about 3 foot at that range with a 16 inch cylinder bore.
What's the ammo any chance it could be a solid or are you getting confused by a hole made by the wad?

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It was just falcon cowboy ammo I had on hand that i tested it with. Would a wad make a clean hole in corflute plastic? I wouldnt have thought so.
Now I also shot a piece of a log at the same range to compare, and it blew a clean chunk out of the wood, so I know the pellets are very tight at that range.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

most cylinder barrels expand by ABOUT an inch per yard......your shot isnt steel thats rusted together perchance????

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Definitely lead shot in these cowboy rounds. I suspect this gun may have cylinder barrels on it.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

At 20 yards you should have about a 12 to 15 inch pattern. I suspect the single hole was made by the wad. Post a couple of photos of the gun and the muzzles.

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I will grab some photos tonight and post them.
Now comparing the shots to my old belgian gun that has a very tight choke, there is a clear difference with about a couple feet spread at 30 meters.
I used the same cowboy ammo in both guns.

I HAVE only ever once before heard of a shotgun doing ball of shot at normal ranges before....early PMC steel and a maverick pump from memory.....tight choke AND SLOW load is the similarity but shot spreads,fullstop...it has to do so... if it hasnt it is somehow stuck inside the wad....even granddad melting candle wax into shot cup to hold shot together for longer didnt manage to turn it into a solid... this one really has interest peaked..look forward to the photos.

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Originally Posted by muzza

Does your gun have steel barrels or damascus twist barrels ? Thats pretty important to know when shooting modern ammo.

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They are Damascus twist barrels. Do these make the wad spin or something?
Ive only put cowboy ammo through it because this thing is not nitro proofed and has a bit of a sloppy action, so dont want to put anything too heavy through it, the barrels look overall OK however.
I did notice an unusual "pinging" kind of sound when I shoot it. Dont know if this is typical of Damascus barrels.

That old girl would have sold for about 5£ when new, if it were me I'd be hanging it on the wall

Any photos of the target

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Originally Posted by muzza

I would strongly advise against shooting any - and I mean ANY - modern or nitro ammo out of a damascus twist barrel. One day it is going to blow the barrel apart. Might not be today , might not be tomorrow - but it will blow the barrel apart and someone will get hurt.

Turn it into a wall hanger and save yourself the grief that is surely coming your way.

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this

blackpowder handloads at most specially made for that gun and definitly have a gunsmith look it over

even my old eyes can see those muzzles are no longer still round...... must be rather a hard life and soft barrel steel.... yip that dimascis so only VERY limited,very light loads...... wallhanger isnt such a silly idea.

also...look at muzzle end photo..the rib is coming adrift from barrel 4;00 from bead...and there is tiny cavity showing also 5;30ish suggesting there maybe not such a good hold going on perhaps???
that photo alone would have me VERY reluctant to fire it......
but still havent seen this taget with one hole in it.
and the bore needs a clean.

The saloon ammo he used is claimed safe for BP only proofed guns. Take the forewood off, hold the gun vertically by the barrel and twist sides to side rapidly, if it "clunks" she's not licking up tight and that's the funny noise on firing. Retire it either as a wall hanger or tomato stakes, you can get 2 by unsoldering the barrels which makes it a much better option than a 303 for that purpose.

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Originally Posted by muzza

I would strongly advise against shooting any - and I mean ANY - modern or nitro ammo out of a damascus twist barrel. One day it is going to blow the barrel apart. Might not be today , might not be tomorrow - but it will blow the barrel apart and someone will get hurt.

Turn it into a wall hanger and save yourself the grief that is surely coming your way.

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This cowboy ammo has very low chamber pressure, ive looked into this heavily before using. I have been told by the supplier that lots of people, particuarly those into cowboy action shooting use this ammo in damascus guns.
The pressure of these rounds is under 6000PSI, which is typical of a black powder round of its day.
I have looked into the deal with Damascus guns and there is alot of fear over them blowing apart, the condition of the barrel is more of the concern rather than the type of barrel. Personally I wouldnt use any heavy charge in a Damascus gun unless its nitro proofed, and I still would go for a lighter than normal load. Ideally I would like to hand load custom ammo for these older guns, but powder is limited.
The person who sold it to me said he was using it on the range with plack powder charges which were probably a heavier load than these cowboy loads.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Any photos of the target

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I will be able to get some photos this weekend when im back out where I was shooting.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

even my old eyes can see those muzzles are no longer still round...... must be rather a hard life and soft barrel steel.... yip that dimascis so only VERY limited,very light loads...... wallhanger isnt such a silly idea.

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Ive got an even older belgian gun with barrels in even worse condition with out of round muzzles and shoots perfect, the gunsmith told me it was safe to shoot with light loads and this thing had real tight chokes on it too. Its a shame its such an old gun, because if it was not in such bad shape, I would use the thing over my modern shotgun any day, it patterns beautifully, but I only use it to shoot clays with cowboy loads.
So the question is why these two guns perform so wildly different. Im wondering if the choke has something to do with it?
I will take some measurements with my calipers.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

also...look at muzzle end photo..the rib is coming adrift from barrel 4;00 from bead...and there is tiny cavity showing also 5;30ish suggesting there maybe not such a good hold going on perhaps???
that photo alone would have me VERY reluctant to fire it......
but still havent seen this taget with one hole in it.
and the bore needs a clean.

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I only fired it because I trusted the seller was truthful when he said to me he had fired it days prior, it was clear there was remains of fibres from the wads inside the barrel from him using it. I have since cleaned it.
Now anyway, I know the gun is not in top notch condition, I knew this before i bought it since it was so stupidly cheap not to take it. I was really just curious to why the loads were punching such a clean hole in the board.
I think trying different ammo is not a bad idea, yes i know its really getting into wallhanger territory, i probably wont be using it alot, I still want to find a decent hammer gun thats more suitable for modern ammo.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The saloon ammo he used is claimed safe for BP only proofed guns. Take the forewood off, hold the gun vertically by the barrel and twist sides to side rapidly, if it "clunks" she's not licking up tight and that's the funny noise on firing. Retire it either as a wall hanger or tomato stakes, you can get 2 by unsoldering the barrels which makes it a much better option than a 303 for that purpose.

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Yes thats correct, that saloon ammo is completley safe in these guns. Ive also got some winchester AA featherlite which is a similar powered load at 5800PSI.
It does have a sloppy action, but so does my other old belgian gun and doesnt make the same sound.

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Originally Posted by muzza

The issue is pressure. The pressure wave for black powder is lower and slower than smokeless. I hope you have a good life insurance policy if you continue down this path.

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Dont get me wrong, I dont take this lightly.
Yes both powders behave differently, but there are smokeless powders that behave more like black powder.
There are Damascus guns that were nitro proofed from factory and it wasnt uncommon to have them sent to a proof house to get re-proofed for nitro powders.

Anyway, these cowboy rounds are so low power that any difference negates the difference between powders.
Ive spoken to gunsmiths about this along with various retailers and have been told the same thing that they are safe in any Damascus gun that is in sound enough condition. I dont think a gunsmith would give advice if a gun was potentially dangerous.
In fact ive even been told that most light clay loads will be fine, so I feel im being extra cautious by using these ultra light loads. There is virtually no recoil with these.

I do want to custom load ammo eventually for these older guns and may look at using black powder, but was put off by its corrosiveness, particularly with older barrels that may be pitted makes cleaning more difficult.

i have in my safe an1861 a&wcarthy dunedin sxs which was purchased in CIRCA 1862when my late grandfatherx3 a arrived from aussie onto the otago goldfields. my late and much loved father confiscated off my cousin in approx 1963 when he caughrt him using smokeles ammo in it .it is a clan treasure(and amongst some hotly contested) .my late g /grandad affixed a brass lions head to the pistol grip and 2x westocast gold nuggets inst into the french walnut fore end.damscus barels both having severe adolescent acne(put politely)and an action looser than a boogie st she boy plus tow broken firing pins -Ive removed thoser and it wil NEVER ever have a live cartridge loaded againl.Im aware a cousin also has a double hammer gun or the same era ,like another who possesse a handloading device for ?said guns

now my good sir..you have mentioned this clan treasure before....I suggest it is far past time it appears in the wood n blue thread if not here....

If and when i can get lazy a into g and persuade daughter to get a set of good photos i will satisfy you craving!

An old Midland gun of fairly average quality when new. The slightly out of round muzzle would not make any significant difference to the pattern but the gun is not safe with nitro loads although the cowboy loads are probably OK in twist steel barrels of good manufacture and good condition. Sadly, your gun does not meet that threshold on either count and is better kept as a memento.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

An old Midland gun of fairly average quality when new. The slightly out of round muzzle would not make any significant difference to the pattern but the gun is not safe with nitro loads although the cowboy loads are probably OK in twist steel barrels of good manufacture and good condition. Sadly, your gun does not meet that threshold on either count and is better kept as a memento.

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I knew that when I bought the thing, but anyway im really just curious to what is going on to shoot with no apparent spread.
I will get some photos tomorrow of the target.

Here is the photo as promised.
There are holes here from a .22 and 30cal and the pellet holes were from several shots taken back 30+m away.
The large holes were what I was getting with little to no pellets visible.

That's wads

Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk

Yep wads, there seem to be quite a lot if pellet holes too. Saloon has 1/2 an ounce of no 7s so the pellet holes will only be 1/10 of an inch half

Re the pinging noise
I have fired a friend's coach gun which made a similar noise when both barrels fired at once - he told me that it was due to barrels not being perfectly parallel
Don't know how true this is but thought it worth mentioning

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Originally Posted by 308

Re the pinging noise
I have fired a friend's coach gun which made a similar noise when both barrels fired at once - he told me that it was due to barrels not being perfectly parallel
Don't know how true this is but thought it worth mentioning

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OK, thats interesting to know. Probably the age of the gun too.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Yep wads, there seem to be quite a lot if pellet holes too. Saloon has 1/2 an ounce of no 7s so the pellet holes will only be 1/10 of an inch half

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OK, i always thought wads wouldnt have made such a clean hole, they usually are twirling around by that stage?
The weirdest thing was no pellet holes at all at close range, those holes only appeared after shooting about 30m away.
I can do a few more shots on a fresh board for comparison.

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Originally Posted by 308

Re the pinging noise
I have fired a friend's coach gun which made a similar noise when both barrels fired at once - he told me that it was due to barrels not being perfectly parallel
Don't know how true this is but thought it worth mentioning

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Maybe more to do with a loose rib, sort of like a tuning fork?

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Yep wads, there seem to be quite a lot if pellet holes too. Saloon has 1/2 an ounce of no 7s so the pellet holes will only be 1/10 of an inch half

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22 grm, half an oz is 14 grm,

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Originally Posted by Skeetshooter

22 grm, half an oz is 14 grm,

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I stand corrected

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Originally Posted by Old_School

OK, thats interesting to know. Probably the age of the gun too.


OK, i always thought wads wouldnt have made such a clean hole, they usually are twirling around by that stage?
The weirdest thing was no pellet holes at all at close range, those holes only appeared after shooting about 30m away.
I can do a few more shots on a fresh board for comparison.

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At close range it will be the shot holding together and making the hole weather or not the wad follows, at longer range the wad will do its thing and the shot is everywhere.

Sent from my SM-N970F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Old_School

OK, i always thought wads wouldnt have made such a clean hole, they usually are twirling around by that stage?
The weirdest thing was no pellet holes at all at close range, those holes only appeared after shooting about 30m away.
I can do a few more shots on a fresh board for comparison.

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I'd like to suggest that you fire a single shot, at a clean sheet, at 20 or 30 yards.
More than one shot per sheet just muddies the waters.

Then post up a photo.

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Originally Posted by Skeetshooter

Maybe more to do with a loose rib, sort of like a tuning fork?

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It could well be
I fired my mates gun and the pinging noise was sort of like a short tubular bell sound, hollow and metallic if that makes sense

It had a helluva kick so I only tried doing it once

I tried it again over the weekend with a new box of ammo and no issues this time.
Pattern appears real good. Didn't seem to notice the ringing sound either, but likely was the loose rib it has.
Will try it out on some clays when I get a chance.