Trap loads for semiautos

I use a Benelli M2 for pest control, and sometimes use it for skeet and sporting clays.

In the past, using Falcon V1 or Fiocchi TT1 I'd have an occasional cycling issue (1 in 50 maybe) whereby the second shell wouldn't chamber, and I presumed the "jam" was caused by the V1 and TT1 not quite being 'powerful' enough to cycle the inertia system. Changing to Falcon Club 28 solved the problem (Falcon Sport Steel also gives no problems).

I can typically gauge how 'powerful' the shells are by the distance the empties eject. V1 and TT1 almost fall at my feet, Club 28 about 800mm away, Sport Steel, about a metre. The last sporting shoot I attended I shot about 200 rounds of Club 28 without a single malfunction.

At the sporting shoot a SA guy was trying to flog off Blasers and had a try-before-you-buy setup on one of the DTL traps. I tried a Sauer & Sohn SL5 semiauto and he provided 4 shells to use which were Clever T2 Competition shells. Of the 4, 2 failed to cycle the action properly. The action is a Benelli clone, ie inertia system. (Nice gun for $2,500). I also tried 4 of the Club 28s I had in my pocket and had no malfunctions.

Anyhow, he sponsored the sporting shoot and I won 5 boxes of those Clever shells and I used them last weekend at a DTL shoot. First thing I noticed was the felt recoil was fairly significant compared to the Club 28 when fired from my U/O trap gun (a DT10 which has a fair weight to it). After the competition shoot (for shits and giggles) I tried the M2 on 25 minis using the Clever ammo. Empty shells were landing at least 2 metres away which suggested they were more 'powerful' than the others, but I still experienced 4 feed failures in those 25 shots. (I also nailed 23/25 minis, way better than I did with the U/O)

So, my question, is it possible for a load to be really short and sharp but not have sufficient energy to cycle the action as opposed to a load which is not as sharp but more sustained? I can't reconcile the distance the empty shells landed, the apparent heavier recoil but still not reliably cycling, not just my gun but the Sauer too. In my gun the second shell (which didn't load) was on the elevator but it seemed to me the bolt wasn't thrown back far enough to store the necessary spring energy to push the bolt forward, lift the elevator and load it. Yet the bolt clearly was coming back violently enough to fling the empties a long way?

Thoughts?

The M2 owners manual states 12 ga. guns require ammo producing at least 230 kgm for proper cycling.

Did a quick search but can't see how to convert ammo ballistics to kgm?

In my M2 I stick to higher velocity 1250/1300 fps, 28 gram loads for target shooting. As you say, the pressure curve of some lighter shells may not be suited to the inertia action.

A lot of people I know that shoot trap with semis use V3 rather than club. Also be aware that quite a few trap loads are now offered in 3/4 oz not 1oz. So even with higher velocity these will have less recoil impulse which may lead to erratic ejection.

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Originally Posted by rockland

The M2 owners manual states 12 ga. guns require ammo producing at least 230 kgm for proper cycling.

Did a quick search but can't see how to convert ammo ballistics to kgm?

In my M2 I stick to higher velocity 1250/1300 fps, 28 gram loads for target shooting. As you say, the pressure curve of some lighter shells may not be suited to the inertia action.

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Those Clever T2 Competition shells are 1250fps, 28gram loads but still cycle inconsistently. After reading another thread about a Mossberg pump not extracting, I'm now wondering if the Clever hulls are goemetrically different and not suited to semis?

You make a good conclusion about not being suitable due to shape. On a goose trip , I gave a young fella some falcon 3inch shells. His gun was chambered for them. Jammed nearly all the time. Other guns were using it fine. Not sure if all were 3.5 inch chambered though thinking about it? Mine was.
I would also not only look at dimensions, but brass. Club type ammo is cheap for a reason. This has to be built into the case somehow. If they use a fraction thinner brass or a fraction softer. When it expands on firing, especially in a slightly tight chamber. It could grab for a fraction of a millisecond and distrupt the cylcing.
Just a couple of thoughts

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

A lot of people I know that shoot trap with semis use V3 rather than club. Also be aware that quite a few trap loads are now offered in 3/4 oz not 1oz. So even with higher velocity these will have less recoil impulse which may lead to erratic ejection.

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I've never used 24 gram loads in the M2. I might give it a try for curiosity's sake though as I've got some FBlack 24gm that I use for ISSF. The Club 28 and Sport steel that work well are both 1250fps, 28gram.

Another shooter recently bought a new Browning A5 (not to be confused with the old Auto 5) and it won't reliably cycle with Club 28 so he uses Fiocchi FBlu which I believe is 1300fps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rockland

The M2 owners manual states 12 ga. guns require ammo producing at least 230 kgm for proper cycling.

Did a quick search but can't see how to convert ammo ballistics to kgm?

In my M2 I stick to higher velocity 1250/1300 fps, 28 gram loads for target shooting. As you say, the pressure curve of some lighter shells may not be suited to the inertia action.

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I did not know that (must read the manual again).

The engineering nerd in me couldn't help himself, and had to look for the conversion. Like you, he couldn't find it and started from basics.

Kgm is a measure of work done (force x distance) and the SI unit is Nm, expressed as Joules. So 230 kgm is 2256 Joules. Assuming the shot velocity at the muzzle is a function of the ammunition's total energy, that energy (also in Joules) is half mass x velocity squared. (I've converted fps to m/s for the calcs).

Rearranging and basing on 28 gram loads (ignoring the mass of the wad and spent powder), 230 kgm would require a muzzle velocity of 1317 fps.

1250 fps, 28 gram ammo would produce 207 kgm, so is a bit on the light side of the M2 owner's manual spec. But hey, it still seems to work OK if it's 1250 fps Falcon but not if it's 1250 fps Clever.

Interestingly, 1300 fps, 28 gram loads only produce 224 kgm. V1 and TT1 produce only 191 kgm and 184 kgm respectively which is obviously why they are not reliable.

That's good info, thanks for crunching the numbers! I will have to remember to buy high velocity 1300fps+ target ammo for the M2.

No doubt the differing "brass" specs affects cycling in semi auto guns, in addition to ballistic performance.

My gas operated 11-87 field gun cycles soft 28 gram target loads (although needs a quick clean after each slab of ammo) and still comfy to use with 42 gram lead magnums.
M2 is normally used with 32 gram 00 buckshot at 1325 fps and is nice to shoot. It's a real tiger with 42/44 gram magnums, but I love the zero-maintenance reliability of the inertia action.

had this problem many years ago on sporting clays .my Bentley Pointer S/A (a5 replica) and escort S/A both wouldnt cycle.
Mates typically in my ear "sell em sell em" -no some lateral thinking and helpful experienced shooters put me onto a bloke who told me where to source HULL DTL 100/30012g trap ammo.
O yeah Oh hell yah did that work a treat .chamber a Hull round with clubbie round in the mag and off it goes like a tomcat with thinners on his ballsack!
both guns loved that diet .
I also found hulls "solway magnum34gm 3"load which for years has been my go to goose load in the escort . anything hit with that -its nite nite curtains!

my subsequent research IIRC also lead me to discover at one stage Gamebore loaded something(1450 FPS) very similar in a trap load. of course given todays hysterical climate dunno if this is still imported.

I had a problem with my beneli nit cycling many years ago. I replaced the extractor claw and never had another problem. The gunsmith I talked to said alot if the target ammo has vectan powder which is a slower burning powder. And that it can cause cycling issues .mate had alot of problems this year with hus semi shootgn steel.of note the cheddite hulls I think withbthe star in them seemed to give him the problems