Thread: Advice for a novice and his friend

So have had a rehomed brittany for a year now, brilliant dog only problem is the owner.
Have good control around home eg heal, come, stop, etc
Have taken here bush on 4-5m lead and she put us onto deer naturally, only problem is handler again

When at park or bush she gets far to excited off lead and basically off self hunting. 100's metres away.

Can call her back and heal her etc but a only by using loud confident voice which ain't so fun.

Was wondering about either whistle or better still a vibrating collar, something like Garmin .

Stupid question time!
How does vibration whistle command work?
1 buz for stop 2 for come
Long and short?

Have tried to contract local field dog club to help burn some energy off her but no replys

Thanks in advance for anyone game to help
Novie and friend

Originally Posted by Penny's walker

So have had a rehomed brittany for a year now, brilliant dog only problem is the owner.
Have good control around home eg heal, come, stop, etc
Have taken here bush on 4-5m lead and she put us onto deer naturally, only problem is handler again

When at park or bush she gets far to excited off lead and basically off self hunting. 100's metres away.

Can call her back and heal her etc but a only by using loud confident voice which ain't so fun.

Was wondering about either whistle or better still a vibrating collar, something like Garmin .

Stupid question time!
How does vibration whistle command work?
1 buz for stop 2 for come
Long and short?

Have tried to contract local field dog club to help burn some energy off her but no replys

Thanks in advance for anyone game to help
Novie and friend

Yes you could try electrocuting it, (Oh sorry vibrating collar... how does it understand the vibration,.. oh yeah you shock the shit out of it first!) you could yell louder, you could give it a hiding... or you could try training it... no treats, no clickers, no hidings, no abuse, just try training it, amazing the results it produces sometimes. (Sorry for being a smart arse, but what did you think, someone would tell you how to appeal to its inner goodwill?

Originally Posted by Ruff

Yes you could try electrocuting it, (Oh sorry vibrating collar... how does it understand the vibration,.. oh yeah you shock the shit out of it first!) you could yell louder, you could give it a hiding... or you could try training it... no treats, no clickers, no hidings, no abuse, just try training it, amazing the results it produces sometimes. (Sorry for being a smart arse, but what did you think, someone would tell you how to appeal to its inner goodwill?

Not ever going to use a shock collar, vibration just designed to be another form of communication, but I guess you probably use ESP on a GSP or something Ruffy.

No I train them.

Let's not bullshit anyone. No dog gives a flying fox terrier about a vibrating collar. They react to that, or the sound, because of the electric shock administered directly after. Any other explanation is pure BS!

Before you engage too far i will tell you this... I am a commercial of trainer of 20 years experience. I never used any electrical collar training aid of any kind, I do not hurt dogs, I don't beat dogs, I do not administer physical corrections anyone could condemn... anyone! I do know and can demonstrate, treat training doesn't work, clicker training doesn't work, positive reinforcement training doesn't work... but they all sold the concept for money to millions of people. But i can show you hyped up, energetic gundogs trained to do their job to the best of their genetic predisposition and do so under complete control and co-operation with their handler... Yeah, nah, really, I can show you that.

@Penny's walker, a whistle is a good idea. An Acme 211.5 is good and you can buy them online through ebay etc.

No dog gives a flying fox terrier about a vibrating collar.

This statement isn't correct. True MOST vibrating collars have a shock button as well but I know of a deaf English setter that was trained very successfully using a vibrating collar. It was an old one of mine and I removed the terminals before I showed the owner how to use it.

Originally Posted by Ruff

No I train them.

Let's not bullshit anyone. No dog gives a flying fox terrier about a vibrating collar. They react to that, or the sound, because of the electric shock administered directly after. Any other explanation is pure BS!

Before you engage too far i will tell you this... I am a commercial of trainer of 20 years experience. I never used any electrical collar training aid of any kind, I do not hurt dogs, I don't beat dogs, I do not administer physical corrections anyone could condemn... anyone! I do know and can demonstrate, treat training doesn't work, clicker training doesn't work, positive reinforcement training doesn't work... but they all sold the concept for money to millions of people. But i can show you hyped up, energetic gundogs trained to do their job to the best of their genetic predisposition and do so under complete control and co-operation with their handler... Yeah, nah, really, I can show you that.

If you dont use positive reinforcement how does the dog know when it is doing what you want? I dont have a dog or train dogs so genuine question.

Aren't vibration and shock two different things?????????????

EeeBees - could you not leave the dog at home (1 problem solved) and use the whistle to call the deer in? (2nd problem solved)

Originally Posted by Ruff

No I train them.

Let's not bullshit anyone. No dog gives a flying fox terrier about a vibrating collar. They react to that, or the sound, because of the electric shock administered directly after. Any other explanation is pure BS!

Before you engage too far i will tell you this... I am a commercial of trainer of 20 years experience. I never used any electrical collar training aid of any kind, I do not hurt dogs, I don't beat dogs, I do not administer physical corrections anyone could condemn... anyone! I do know and can demonstrate, treat training doesn't work, clicker training doesn't work, positive reinforcement training doesn't work... but they all sold the concept for money to millions of people. But i can show you hyped up, energetic gundogs trained to do their job to the best of their genetic predisposition and do so under complete control and co-operation with their handler... Yeah, nah, really, I can show you that.

Thanks for your input.
So in 20 years of training you have never done kiwi aversion which I understand involves shock collars?
Very hard to find any useful help for gundog training in Dunedin hence the questions and admission of been novice

The Gamin Delta from The Collar Clinic might be worth while for you, it vibrates and also has a "tone".
I had a collar that gave a buzz sound that worked really well, distracts the dog from what it is concentrating on (like doing its own thing). Unfortunately it was a cheapo off Grab One and fell apart in the brush down a bank up the forest.
I have a "silent" dog whistle, the large size. You can set the sound range on it so that you can hear it. Better than the normal whistles which are so noisy. You would have to train your dog to respond to it of course. Brittany can be pretty speedy.

Thanks GSP that is the sort of thing I was thinks of with the Garmin.
Yep the Brittany's can be quick, disappearing in one direct re appearing at the total opposite spot at the same time

Originally Posted by des oneile

This statement isn't correct. True MOST vibrating collars have a shock button as well but I know of a deaf English setter that was trained very successfully using a vibrating collar. It was an old one of mine and I removed the terminals before I showed the owner how to use it.

That's a pretty big exception Des. and your MOST is ALL as far as I am aware.

Originally Posted by Gibo

If you dont use positive reinforcement how does the dog know when it is doing what you want? I dont have a dog or train dogs so genuine question.

You might be misinterpreting "Positive Reinforcement"! All styles of training contain "Positive reinforcement" it is obvious to communicate with a dog that for it it to understand what was expected that when it did it, you acknowledge it.

That's not "Positive reinforcement Training". Positive Reinforcement training" is a stand alone methodology that ignores all bad behavior and only acknowledges the good. It's LaLa land stuff. It's like the IRD collecting tax by sending thank you letters to those who pay and ignoring those who don't. Dogs ain't real smart, but they ain't dumb.

You are 100% correct, you positively acknowledge good behavior, but that isn't, by definition, "Positive Reinforcement Training". Good question.

Originally Posted by EeeBees

@Penny's walker, a whistle is a good idea. An Acme 211.5 is good and you can buy them online through ebay etc.

A whistle produces a sound, the dog then needs to associate an action with that sound. A whistle has little advantage, from a training point of view, to the voice, both are foreign to a dogs usual ways of communicating.

A whistle has the advantage of disturbing less game than the voice and having, usually, a longer range. Apart from that it offers no real training advantage. Body language and hand signals, on the other hand (Pardon the pun) do.

Originally Posted by Penny's walker

Thanks for your input.
So in 20 years of training you have never done kiwi aversion which I understand involves shock collars?
Very hard to find any useful help for gundog training in Dunedin hence the questions and admission of been novice

No, I have worked with too many dogs virtually psychologically destroyed by electricity to ever allow a dog to exposed to it, certainly not deliberately and have very strong methodology for dealing with dogs having a traumatic encounter with electric fencing etc. I would never put a dog through the Kiwi Aversion program and have hunted Deer in areas outside of this requirement as a result, if it became mandatory to do so in all areas I would go back to deer stalking without the aid of a dog.

My initial comments were direct, and deliberately so, to try and get you off the line of thinking you were/are on. It's not just Dunedin that is lacking in good info on training dogs, it's most of the world... the business of animal companions has become so huge it is now tainted with commercial fads and BS beyond comprehension. $400,000,000 spent in New Zealand annually on dog treats alone! Their use has nothing to do with effectiveness but with consumerism!

My training methodology is different to anyone else's I know, but it works. I have great dogs, they don't get shocked, treated, given a hiding, they think the sun shines out of my back passage and I think they are pretty bloody special too and, while being humble, I have had some dogs that are still, to this day, revered in gundog circles. This is openly acknowledged by various governmental service dog sectors.

I would feel as if I had failed if the day comes when I need an external device to get a dogs attention. Some days I think my dogs pay me too much attention! I recommend getting the last three back issues of Rod and Rifle Magazine and subscribe for the next six. I am their gundog columnist and that series will walk you through my methodology from beginning to end... no e-collars, no shocks, no vibration, no treats, no hidings... just you and your dog working together... it's so bloody easy... but it doesn't make money for Garmin, Tux or any of the conglomerates involved in BSing the public.