This has been a god informative thread Dougie have enjoyed
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This has been a god informative thread Dougie have enjoyed
It is highly unlikely one would rock up with a SPCA special given its hard enough to get a pure bred dog owners to attend ---some people dont like to expose their weaknesses I presume ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougie
Have you guys read the article I am talking about? Last month's NZHunter Mag
No -NZ HUNTER great mag in fact the best outdoor magazine in NZ :thumbsup:
According to the guy who prints it...
hahahahahaha sprung
I like the fact that you can run a crossbreed in novice trials. I wish we would improve upon that by saying if the cross was beating everything else, that it could go on a limited register to be bred from with pedigreed dogs. obviously passing all the conformation tests etc. - a much better way to improve a breed. The best GSP I have ever seen wasn't registered, wouldn't you use that in your program if the dog was exceptional? Quickest way to improve a breed
A large number of the behind the scenes govt dogs (detector dogs in mail centres and bomb dogs in the airport tarmac etc) are SPCA specials. And they do a great job :)
Yep. Dogs that find scent in a single repeated environment under little distraction. A mutt of the right cross, you're away laughing. Even better that you can get a dozen of them from the shelter for bugger all. That way you can take 20 of them, start training, and cull as necessary for minimal cost. Out of those 20 there might be two goodies, job done
Crossbreds can run in more than novice. They can compete in any minor (non-championship) trial. There's a open PS natural game trial coming up that's open to non-registered dogs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
You're just trying to get a rise out of me with that second part aren't you? You are talking about 2 separate issues in the same statement, unregistered purebreds and crossbreds and you know damn well F1 cross breds are useless producers.
Not at all bro. If I was a GSP nut I would have used this dog and put him under another name
Unregistered and crossbred are 2 separate issues
Not at all, looks like one, acts like one, must be one - except for no documentation so can't be one
Don't forget it has to produce true to type to be of any use which is usually where they let you down
BingoQuote:
Originally Posted by RCGSP
Anyway, back to the shocking news. one yank out of 100,000 says no to leccy collars
Pointer, I think you'll find that you missed some info in your quote... it should readQuote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
I though you only used E Collars for training wives not to nag:) You can apply the "correction" while still being out of handbag range
You going to be sleeping with one eye open for the rest of your life mikee :D
Got married at 25, Still married 18 years later and still happy too.
43 if my math correct. Well done Mikee.
As a pro trainer it takes much less time to train a dog and the results are consistent with the use of the new E-collars. No, you don’t have to have an E-collar to train a dog. I have talked with many people about this. One in particular, a medical doctor said, “I would rather do things the old fashioned way.” I can only say that I hope he doesn’t practice medicine the old fashioned way. There are many misconceptions about the use of the E-collar
These are not my words, but they are 100% correct. If I look at Mr Milner and his gun, he seems to like it the old fashioned way. Not to downgrade him in any way, how much of an expert is he. How succesfull has he been in the past compared to other trainers? There is an English saying : Those who can do, those who can't preach and those who can't preach write.
I have been training for about 12/14 years without e-collar and about 7 with an e-collar. The succes ratio didn't get better or worse, but the modern training method's certainly are a lot more dog friendly.
married 9 years -separated now mortgage is twice the size -not satisfied ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
a few in the dog box
Hmmm. Interesting, HOWEVER I call bullshit. Even the dogs themselves understand the pack leader. EVERY pack has one, and it doesn't get to be leader for no reason. They tell each other off, and it often isn't just with a growl or a bark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
Where did the myth that dogs only growl or snap at each other come from, and not dish out a hiding?? Big myth that one! They in fact will deal to another dog if it fucks up and they are high enough in the order to give it whato.
Yes they might just growl or snap, bit if they think it's warranted they will put out a serious hiding. In fact I'm surprised myself at times what they will do. Because of this I work on the same theory myself with them.
I agree Wirehunt. A serious hunting dog doesn't do what told just by making him read books. Even a proper trained dog which is perfectly obedient on gameless ground, will test you when he gets into a hedge with game in front of him. If he wouldn't test you, he wouldn't be seriously hunting. I mean the type of dog that only has one goal = finding game. A dog that the moment he gets game scent in his nose forgets everything, even that he has a boss. In pre-collar time, you needed to run him down and have a constructive conversation. This sometimes took weeks to get it O.K. With modern technology he soon discovers that the bosses arm is far longer than he thought it was.
Dan Langhans, who made up the most FtCh Springer Spaniels in the US, uses the collar since the early 70's from last century. A man who proved that he can do it. Speaking to him is one of the most valuable things I ever did.
My 4 year old 30 kg stud dog growls at his 12 week old 11 kg son son when he annoys him and will give him a shot if he doesn't respond to the growl, elevating the response until the pup responds. My old weim does the same thing. Are you suggesting the big dogs are uncertain of their position? I assure they have no doubt and are just disciplining the young'n.
That's right, top dogs beat the bottom dogs. And they don't pick a fight, they dish out a hiding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tussock
Second comment is if you only have one dog, in a pack you guide the top dog and the other dogs tend to look to it.
Yes and with my packs it's ME! and I don;t allow any of the crap you are saying goes on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
Interesting, I don't leave any dog in the top position in my packs... I holds that... scraps can occur between lesser dogs and are stopped by the top dog... me... and the result is those behaviors disappear and the dogs respect who holds the position, it reinforces it. Because hierarchy is dynamic, if you stand idly by and let this crap happen, in that oment you've left the role, given it to the aggressor and are creating more handling confusion for later.
It seems some contend the options are "Old fashioned methods" or an e-collar.... I didn't realise the options were that limited... I use modern methods, no e-collar... the most successful trainers in the world (I don't include the Americans in this, especially with spaniels as the US has been the UK's dumping ground for a long time with spaniels) don't use the e-collar or old fashioned training methods...
Watch Lissett's dogs work... I'll guarantee you two things... 1) They've never seen an e-collar, 2) They've never had "constructive conversation"....
This would only occur if the pre training had been substandard... Long time since I had to run a dog down and give a hiding... that is old fashioned, but the alternative is there and it's doesn;t have to be an e-collar. Sounds like a leaderless dog hunting, not including the handler in the hunt, again, in my world that would amount to poor pre-training.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
I don;t want to be reliant on an external device to run a dog... at the other pub a guy is trying to source a battery for his unit, the old one died, he'll get another one this week, what does he do in the interim? I can't be bothered with that if I can a result without it... I think it is far better to just have me and my dog and go hunting, and I don;t like a dog working in any collar...
Seems people here have a very narrow outlook on things... it seems the status quo is we either have to beat them or shock them... I'd offer there are much better ways... much! I am actually a bit flummoxed people see it this way when there are much better methodology on offer.
It's a rare day I beat the dogs, in fact I can't remember the last time. It's also unusual for the collar to come out apart from stock training, but it does.
I don't see anyone using a whip. This is a fantastic tool. No you don't flog them with it, but they pay real close attention when it's waved around and makes a bit of noise. At worst I'll lay it over there back, there is no pain involved. Not cracking it on them, just lay it over.
The throat hold is another very useful tool just to remind them who the boss is, again rarely used.
What a hoot this pre training thing is. All very nice if you get the dog young, real young, but as a rule mine are a little older before I get them....
No, you can pre-train a dog for game at any age... Throat hold? Works in the moment, but it's just arguing the point with a dog, I don;t get into that argument... I hold myself above it, as do most pack leaders... most aggressors in a pack are challenging, not disciplining, there are exceptions, but most....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
now you say pre-training is a hoot, but by your comments i have to assume you don;t even know what I'm on about, but still want to decry it... far out, imagine if there's something new to learn here, but hey... maybe not...
No, what I mean is around here it's not do-able. It would be nice but not practical.
Fair enough
I fully agree that Lisset's dogs probably never have seen an e-collar. Spaniels changed so dramaticly the last decades that the majority of UK springers no longer truly hunt. If you have a soft, fast, stylish springer who only thinks about pleasing you instead of finding game, you don't need any repression. I know what I say. I only am two hours from the UK and had and have seen enough of those modern spaniels to make an opinion about them. The trough spaniel, who after hitting sent only once or twice at young age, goes berserk and turns a wood up and down to find what is in front of him, that's the one I speak about. The type of dog that needs the skills of the most experienced trainer to be kept under control. The pitty is that you hardly don't find them any more. In Mike Smith's book, Lawton Evans ( one of the greatest trainers ever), declares that he had to exaust Coppicewood Carla the 2 or 3 days before the trial in a root field, just to be able to keep on top of her. These days there hardly is a dog that boils over, because they lack the steam.
Ian Bateson told me that 25/30 years ago you could see 12 out of 15 handlers struggle to keep the dog under control and now you're lucky if you see 1. Are all the trainers that much better or is the breed going down?
Sounds like my lot Hales :D
Monday they are fucking hopeless for at least half an hour, then they will start settling into it (maybe) Tuesday it only takes ten minutes and pretty much the same for the rest of the week. They only do a four day week maximum as it is just to hard on them to do much more.....
Sounds like you make a lot of assumptions Hales... I've had spaniels for 30 years, some of them going back to very hard hunting lines from Earlandsons era... he too lamented the change in the spaniel even then and I agree there are alot of soft ones around these days... too soft... but we have some of the best spaniels in the world down here and I'd challenge you to find a harder hunting spaniel than the majority of dogs from the Ballyblack lines we have down here, my old dog is typical of them, hard to handle (Compared to the new soft types) and hard as nails in tough cover and extremely driven on game, even now at 12 years old..... which is why the Ballyblacks consistently beat and show up the imports that regularly come in from the UK... One of our leading trainers here describes those softer types of dogs as "English white grass dogs"... so before you get all conceited and think you are going to educate these poor ignorant down under peasants about spaniels you might want to pull your head in a bit because you don;t live 2 hours from New Zealand and you don;t have a clue about our spaniels down here ... obviously... I agree with the change, for the worse, in spaniels and how soft they've got, nothing new, Earlandson was talking about the start of it 30 yeras ago and warned against it and no one listened, well, very few..... none of that makes a case for an e-collar, it does, to me make one hell of a case for not being able to handle a hard going dog without one though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
and for the record when commercial training or just helping mates out I work regularly and with some rarer ones not so regularly with Labradors, spaniels, Chesapeake Bay retrievers, German Wirehairs, German Shorthairs, Curly Coat retrievers, Viszla's, Setters, Pointers and cross breeds of these and more....
and none of them ever get a collar from me, and none of them get a hiding either... as i appear to get a result it almost seems unexplainable aye? or maybe you folks have just decided there is only your way of doing it and are going to stick with that... good on ya. :D
In no way I would think of downgrading the NZ spaniels, as I don't know them at all. In the past I tried to find more info on the Ballyblack spaniels, but there isn't much about them on the internet.
I do know the modern English white grass dogs and can fully understand these are very easy to train, but not easy to get them hunt if you don't have the amount of game seen in the UK. I do neither want to convince anybody to use the e-collar, but I know it's a usefull tool when properly used. I have , on paper , the method Joe Greatorex used on the O'Vara spaniels. He put them in the rabbit pen for hours or days (without he being there) . The moment they started to kill to much rabbits he stopped putting them in. I think you will agree that the moment you train this dog, he just doesn't stop chasing a rabbit when you blow the stop whistle for the first,second or third time.
When you read Erlandson's first book about his 17 Champions, you will see that a good few where non hunters that took time to get going. I don't like this type of dog. It's fine when you have plenty of game, but not if the dog only gets 1 find every hour in the hardest of cover.
No I won;t agree... yes he will, if he's been trained to stop properly in the first place, yes he is harder to stop than a white grass dog, all the more reason your stop whistle training has to be that much sharper for the tougher type of dog.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
On preserves we have a ton of game, but one pheasant an hour would be a good days hunting here in our public forests... our dogs are up to it... and I can tell, at a trial, the difference between a dog capable of that type of work and one that lives and works on preserves only. (Preserves = Pheasant Estates).
Ballyblack's, you won;t find much online, Jim Clarke (Mr Ballyblack) is in his Eighties and doesn't spend much time online. I think our spaniels could go the same road. I am breeding back to Ballyblack lines to try and keep them, others are looking to imports... be interesting to see how that all works out. :D
I believe by the time you have the skill to use an e-collar properly, you don;t need one ;)
Have a dog hard headed enough and you do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff