Breeding and its finer points

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Originally Posted by Tussock

NZ is completely different to England, the US etc. We should have produced NZ specific breeds a long time ago.

Where do you think they got all the current breeds from? Cross breeding.

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I agree Tussock.
There is a few 'known' breeds or rather types when it comes to pig dogs.

My breeding program goes something like trying to keep the dirty little foxy away from the bitches, but that is a mission! Still he's a bloody good wee hunter so I don't mind so much ;) However I'm liking the first cross foxy/springers, there with be a litter of Lurchers taken out of the whippet bitch when she is next on heat. The choice is simple enough, got a good dog lined up for her. Cross good with good and you are a large way there.

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Originally Posted by upnorth uplander

This backs up what i posted earlier

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but he did and he then changed so that assumption is incorrect Zharn .The fact he decided to go for dogs with a little more height shows his breeding opinion changed in this area even though he had been using smaller mating partners -its not that it was wrong but seen as less desirable for the breed for the future possibly

My thoughts for this particular thread was really aimed at how to breed and why you would pick dog A over Dog B -how closely related they should or shouldn't be -Ruff answered that with no closer than the Grandparents but do others do it differently ?? Im looking to get insight here for others and myself to consider for future breeding

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Originally Posted by el borracho

I would breed from a dog any day if it was a winner--why wouldn't you?

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Sometimes Brian I dont think u remember what u post

Tweed was a winning dog yet Leon chose not to carry on breeding from her because of her size, FFS you even posted about it ,yet you still dont see my point

Why would you not keep going for out crosses, at least as far as you can? Plenty of good dogs out there that can bring a different dimension to a line.

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Originally Posted by upnorth uplander

Sometimes Brian I dont think u remember what u post

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presuming it conformed to a standard I wanted of course Zharn , of course that post was answering Vickys post which had a negative slant toward winning dogs !!!.One presumes Leon experimented also so had good and bad experience one would imagine .

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Originally Posted by Wirehunt

Why would you not keep going for out crosses, at least as far as you can? Plenty of good dogs out there that can bring a different dimension to a line.

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because you would also breed to what you know to be in line from personal experience

I think the farming world should be looked at a lot more when it comes to breeding techniques. Yes some of the top eventers have all the paperwork, but the bulk of breeding is done via dogs that work or can bring something into a line.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

NZ is completely different to England, the US etc. We should have produced NZ specific breeds a long time ago.

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*cough* NZ huntaway? Or do you mean gundog breeds? if so, then there isn't nothing we could create that hasn't been done already

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Where do you think they got all the current breeds from? Cross breeding.

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Initially, then severe inbreeding. How else do you think they solidified a type in their breed, by accident?

Laverack writes that his original strain of setters was created by four generations of brother/sister matings. Lord Buccleuchs' strain that became the Labrador was the result of 5 generations of sire to daughter, then to his grand daughter, then to great grand daughter etc.

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Originally Posted by el borracho

the lot Pointer --a discussion about it all. plenty like me that would appreciate your thoughts

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My thoughts? Sharing my thoughts on the matter would be sheer pomposity.

I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I doubt there would be anyone on this forum who can really talk with authority on the matter of successfully breeding gundogs. Certainly not myself. By 'successfully' I mean decades of hands on experience making a positive improvement in their breed.

So guys for example the Setter myself and
John Pilcher will be bringing in will first be mated to his Dog -Part "woody" and part Lena from Frank Tommy .Then next mating providing my boy has some squirt left -Lena and wingfeild warrior who was out of Woody also . The litters we produced are they able to go back over the different fathers or is that way to close

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Originally Posted by el borracho

presuming it conformed to a standard I wanted of course Zharn , of course that post was answering Vickys post which had a negative slant toward winning dogs !!!.One presumes Leon experimented also so had good and bad experience one would imagine .

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El B, please do not call me vicky...I much prefer hey, cook, cow, bitch than that name...please...

There can also be intrinsic values in dog breeding...it is not in any book, it is in your eye and soul...you know it is going to work...pedigree, performance, perfection it matters not...there are times you know it has got to be good...

question...how many trials would the average trialist attend in a year...? yet we roughshooters can go out every night with the dog and more times than not ping some delicious quarry...or do you get hung up on trial titles in pedigrees because it means that supposedly all the works been done and you have a piece of paper telling you how marvellous a dog is so if the puppies are not up the scratch you can blame the breeders...

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Originally Posted by el borracho

So guys for example the Setter myself and
John Pilcher will be bringing in will first be mated to his Dog -Part "woody" and part Lena from Frank Tommy .Then next mating providing my boy has some squirt left -Lena and wingfeild warrior who was out of Woody also . The litters we produced are they able to go back over the different fathers or is that way to close

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Its flawed, El B....Bring her out in whelp...

most trialers I knew hunted and competed even better one thinks Victoria.It would be great to bring her out with an extra one on board but is all a bit new to me

Consider this, she may be the only dog you ever import, so if possible, maximise your investment...

someone else s thoughts

The Breeding of Dogs



The two common practices in dog breeding are outcross and line breeding. Many people with little knowledge about dog breeding will ask questions using the phrases pure bred, well bred, over bred, in bred, or line bred without knowing what these terms mean. This can lead to a lot of confusion. Many of the people asking these questions don’t understand the question they are asking, never mind the answer. Volumes have been written on the breeding of dogs, so it is impossible to cover every aspect in the contents of a single web article. However, I will try very briefly to explain what we do and what we do not do here at Kirby Mountain Sporting Dogs in order to give you an idea of what we are trying to produce.
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Outcross Breeding

Outcross breeding is much easier to explain so we will start here.



Outcross breeding is when you take a male and female dog of the same breed but have no relatives that are the same. It is similar to putting two dogs of different breeds together as they do not have any relatives. When you mix breeds or outcross in the same breed of dogs, the puppies could have three different looks. Some may look like the mom, some like the dad, and some may have neither the mother nor the father’s appearance. In outcross breeding the appearance (similarities and differences with the parents) are immediately noticeable. However, the health and temperament of the outcross breeding takes longer to distinguish.



People often believe that, because the outcross is a blending of two non related dogs, there is an averaging of the parents’ characteristics in their offspring. One would think that more blending of size, shape, coat, ear length, and temperament and health factors would take place. But this is not true, as I stated before, the puppies could look nothing like either parent.



One upside to the outcross breeding is a thing called Hybrid Vigor. Hybrid vigor means that when you cross breed you get healthier, stronger specimens. However, not all cross breeding produce hybrid vigor because this is not a perfect world. Obviously, you need to have two healthy, genetically clean parents to start—knowing the background of the sires and dams is important in any breeding. With a dog such as the Labrador Retriever, the #1 dog in America today, outcross breeding is a good breeding practice. Why? Because of its popularity, the demand for labs is high; breeding happens in order to keep up the supply for the demand; and along with all this breeding comes all the health ailments out there. Outcross breeding and sire/dam research can reduce the occurrences of these issues.



With outcross breeding there is a concern with performance. Pointing instinct, flushing instinct, and retrieving ability can be seriously diminished. It is important to mention here that diminished performance is a possibility with outcross breeding but with researching the performance histories of the sires and dams successful dogs can be produced through this kind of breeding.


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Line Breeding



Line breeding means breeding two animals of the same breed, within the same family. Typical line breeding practices are to breed a ½ brother to a ½ sister, a granddaughter to a grandfather, a niece to an uncle, and so on. Some people consider breeding full brothers to full sisters or fathers to daughters to be line breeding when in actuality this is called in breeding.



At Kirby Mountain Sporting Dogs, we use the practice of line breeding, but I will explain what in breeding is in order to show you why we do not practice in breeding. There are major reasons for this. Because the breeders using in breeding are looking for a diamond in the rough, they will forfeit the health and temperament of much of a litter in order to get one or maybe two great dogs. In breeding may happen by accident where littermates may accidentally breed. However, some breeders plan such practices. Breeders of national caliber show and field dogs will partake in this breeding in order to produce the next national champion or superstar. If the litter has physical or temperament problems with some or all of the pups, the breeder is willing to take the risk for the chance of producing the future national champion. Breeders will often sell the inferior littermates at a discounted price and will label them as pet quality dogs. Through no fault of the puppy, it is actually a genetic time bomb waiting for something to go wrong. At our facility the health and temperament of all our puppies is a priority. We will not risk an entire litter for one superstar; therefore, we do not practice in breeding.



Line breeding is a less judicious process. The key to successful line breeding is HONESTY. You can kid yourself or be in denial or as we say in the dog world Kennel Blind. Line breeding has to be done one litter at a time. It needs to be evaluated and a judgment made as to whether it should be done again.



Line breeding can pass along physical, temperament, and performance traits: good and bad. If you breed two dogs with the same physical problems, you will probably have those problems with the pups. If you breed two dogs that are very timid, that trait will probably come out in the pups. Breeding two dogs with weak pointing or retrieving instincts will probably show through in the puppies. The upside in line breeding is that the puppies will have uniformity in color, shape, and size. You will have a litter of puppies that look alike.



Some breeders will line breed once or twice followed by an outcross and then breed back to the line breed family evaluating the puppies produced in each breeding. It is important to mention that a breeder should know as much as possible about the history of both the sire and dam in every breeding.



If this sounds confusing, that’s because it is!

me personally Tussock I wouldn't have a clue.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

What do you guys think of the general health of these "line bred" dogs.

How many live a surgery free life and make it to old age?

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It depends on the quality of the line.

Almost all the dogs I've ever owned have been purebred and linebred to a greater or lesser degree and all have lived long healthy lives with no serious problems other than the odd hunting injury. My first GSP was the result of a father daughter mating and hunted nearly to the day she died at 15 as did her brother.

The overwhelming majority of the hunting line bred animals I have seen have been very healthy animals. Ironically most of the dogs I've seen with serious health problems lately have been crossbreds but that's not the norm. The line bred animals that commonly have health problems are usually show bred animals bred to extremes like brachycephalic breeds like bulldogs, pugs etc not hunting bred animals. There are of course exceptions like labs that have been massively overbred with little attention to health issues.

Long story short if you buy from a reputable, knowledgeable breeder of hunting dogs I believe you can expect excellent health and long life.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

What do you guys think of the general health of these "line bred" dogs.

How many live a surgery free life and make it to old age?

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The term 'line breeding' is pure anthropomorphism. It's just that inbreeding just sounds so evil!

We all think of deliverance when we hear that word, but from a geneticists point of view all dog breeds are inbred. Inbreeding is how we have created basically every type and strain of livestock, cattle, sheep, fowl, fish, all manner of crops and fruit trees, basically everything we have domesticated for a purpose. And it is how we will further these endeavours, selecting the best, discarding the rest. As Wirehunt says, there is much to be learned in the dog world when we view them as livestock, both in their management and in their breeding.

I think you are hung up on the pedigree dog thing, hence why you put it in the titles of the new section. You have made quite bias comments about pedigee dogs; I feel your take on them is quite frankly misinformed. Can you tell us where you get this opinion from?

As an interesting side note, and a rather irrelevant one at that, other than Lord Buccleughs' Labradors which equate to one side of your dog, did you know that the setter was one of the foundation breeds of the huntaway which equates to the other side of your dog? Meaningless I know, just my dose of trivia for the day

info possibly from Abraham

Wrong. Thomas Jefferson said that :XD:

you need one of my setters Tussock -7 months away

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Originally Posted by Tussock

I honestly have not seen a healthy pure bred of any kind. We had a munsterlander, cancer at 7, my English pointer made 14 but had liver problems his whole life. Then another English pointer, liver failure at 7. Iv seen a dog from one of the lines regularly spoken highly of on here with some very nasty genetic defects.

If I knew a few healthy dogs it might be different. Having said all that the springer/curly coat cross my mother has that I used to hunt with is dieing of cancer at 8. I think diet has been a big factor with these dogs.

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Ah. That explains the animosity. Has it really turned you off pedigree dogs, or has it turned you off pedigree breeders?

I suppose that's fair enough if that was your experience but that's not normal with responsible breeders.

Obviously shit happens despite your best efforts but it's the exception not the rule.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Setter thing might explain the sort of point thing they do with their front leg raised.

I honestly have not seen a healthy pure bred of any kind. We had a munsterlander, cancer at 7, my English pointer made 14 but had liver problems his whole life. Then another English pointer, liver failure at 7. Iv seen a dog from one of the lines regularly spoken highly of on here with some very nasty genetic defects.

If I knew a few healthy dogs it might be different. Having said all that the springer/curly coat cross my mother has that I used to hunt with is dieing of cancer at 8. I think diet has been a big factor with these dogs.

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I agree with you, Tussock...I believe that manufactured dog food is a killer...

YES fr sure ! bad food = deteriorating health