Dog training problems and answers

Ooooo better example. Police dog sent away to rip bad guy's arm off. A sudden flash of the torch reveals that the bad guy is actually an old lady in her dressing gown. The handler 'calls the bullet back' by sending the dog into an immediate down.

I am not sure why but I can have the dog perform at high distraction level like this, with a sendaway then a down while running, but only reliably after I have had him in a heel/down/stopped position before the sendaway. So if I am in control of the distraction, it works. When he is in control (spots a rabbit) there is no way in hell.

And please, please PLEASE don't burn me while I am being honest. If this turns into a conversation about how smart you are and how dumb I am, I think I might just unplug my internet for a couple of months!

hey you spelt conversation rong!!!!

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Originally Posted by Neckshot

hey you spelt conversation rong!!!!

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You didn't see aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanything... ;)

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Originally Posted by Dougie

El B does your dog have a down at a distance sorted? Like an emergency down... I would imagine a bird dog would need this in his basic box of tools.

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longgg whistle on high tapering off -any distance he will go down if he can here it clearly.its the same as a close down whistle. teach it at a controllable distance then progress further out

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Originally Posted by el borracho

longgg whistle on high tapering off -any distance he will go down if he can here it clearly

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Sweet! How'd you teach that?

Neckshot - he spelled 'hear' wrong!

Teach drop close up, then gradually further out under increasing distance and distraction, enforcing any slip ups as we go. Have a 14 month old setter here at the moment in the process of it. Some guys like the long line in the early phases, I don't have a 100m long line. Maybe ruff can share the inside info on it that I'm missing

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Originally Posted by Pointer

Teach drop close up, then gradually further out under increasing distance and distraction, enforcing any slip ups as we go. Have a 14 month old setter here at the moment in the process of it. Some guys like the long line in the early phases, I don't have a 100m long line. Maybe ruff can share the inside info on it that I'm missing

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Sweet, this is exactly what I am doing (no long line)

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Originally Posted by Dougie

And please, please PLEASE don't burn me while I am being honest. If this turns into a conversation about how smart you are and how dumb I am, I think I might just unplug my internet for a couple of months!

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I don;t think you're dumb... I think you are, like 99.9% of people seeking information on training dogs in the world today have been sold a crock of crap. In the absence of anything else what were supposed to believe? That's actually what my crusade if you want to call it that is all about. I genuinely feel sorry for people who want to make a good job of things and are sold these techniques that are fundamentally flawed. It's very real and it very big business. The problem is, having learned it people want to retain ownership of the info.

In answer to your problem. There's no magic solution.You won;t like my answer but it has to do with the basis of your training. Your authority over your dog is questionable to the dog at this distance. It hasn't started with you, there is no request to return to you. Whether you choose to believe it or not all that food training/reward etc reduces the dog view of where you sit in the hierarchy. It may be subtle but in instances like this where you cannot reward and there's nothing in it for the dog to remain and not enough respect to just comply because you have asked it to... it doesn't. There's no issue... just a dog being a dog.

One thing that might help is removing use of the "Down Stay" command. It confuses dogs. It has Down and Down stay.. what's the difference? Doesn't down mean down and not move until instructed? If so why use stay? If you've established a down at close range and then actually change the command to downstay when it at a distance all the training associated with simply down doesn't always transfer... remember these are just sounds, they are not hearing language persey.

I would address your command to just down, no matter where the dog is with an appropriate release command. Start that training over, only using down and a release at close range and increase the distance again. With a reduction in confusion it may be enough to fix it.

Don't get snarky over what i have said about food.. it's real i believe it. If you ask me a question i will answer it, and you have the right to not like it or not do anything about. I also have the option of telling you to book an appointment, which i don't do on forums unless I believe something can;t be fixed by online discourse, and even then I usually don;t charge... but, and don;t take offense, but the easiest way to get on my bad side is to take advantage of my good side... so don;t accuse me of touting for business again, I give my time and advise for nothing on here and have nothing but the reward of someone getting it right as a result. i get very little business from forums and I don;t look for it, most of the time I am trying to find people to help with dogs, not find more of them. I think that was a very cheap shot but I'll let it slide.

I am and will always be very direct, in fact many here can tell you how extremely direct and blunt I can be, trust me... I have been very nice to you.

If I typed down stay I meant that it was the action, not the command. I do not have a 'stay' command at all. Only 'do' commands if that makes sence. Down means down until I tell you to do something else which is then free!

So - what do I do?

I was afraid of that... you really won;t like this answer.. you sure you want it?

Ha ha. Make my dog into cat food and start again? :)

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Originally Posted by Dougie

Ha ha. Make my dog into cat food and start again? :)

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I have a Russian schutzhund / police dog book here, written in the 60s. reckons feeding your reject dogs from your kennel to the others is OK, as long as you boil them :o

:o youd need a scolding bath yeah??

Wait, I thought El B once told me cooked bones were bad for dogs? De-bone then boil?

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Originally Posted by Dougie

Wait, I thought El B once told me cooked bones were bad for dogs? De-bone then boil?

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dont think that was me Dougie

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Originally Posted by Dougie

Ha ha. Make my dog into cat food and start again? :)

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Nah not at all....

I am going to choose my words carefully so will reply tomorrow.. I'm too tired to be nice right now. :D

The answer is above, but I'll give you more insight tomorrow.

Jim, the long line works well on young dogs in the early stages but I have never known anyone I have shown the methodology too that did not break the golden rule of long lines and picked it up when the dog could see them. Renders them totally useless in the instant. they only serve a purpose if the line is stepped on. might do a video on it at some stage.

For the person who was taught to use a check chain... safest, fastest, most humane way to train a dog for these types of lessons. If used improperly, nightmare.

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Originally Posted by el borracho

dont think that was me Dougie

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Cooked bones are brittle and hard and if eaten could cause all sorts of dramas... splinters stuck in the gums, splinters in the gut etc etc...

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Originally Posted by Ruff

Jim, the long line works well on young dogs in the early stages but I have never known anyone I have shown the methodology too that did not break the golden rule of long lines and picked it up when the dog could see them. Renders them totally useless in the instant. they only serve a purpose if the line is stepped on. might do a video on it at some stage.

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You shared that one with me some time back, used it with a young vizsla I had here. stepping on that line was like the hand of god!

Yep, works well but has to be underused... over use it and they do work it out, but in the context of the "process" it sure gets them thinking with you and if you're smart you can keep them going with that mindset....

Ok Dougie.... here is my thoughts.

It's an easy fix on the face of it... but the cause is all your "positive" training. Not a dig, this is the consequence. Do not misunderstand this to mean there should be no positive's in training or that some positives equate to positive reinforcement training. You described it perfectly when you said "reward good behavior and ignore bad behavior". I say it doesn't work, you claim it does... so wouldn't the logical answer be to ignore the creeping and reward when he stays put? Just sayin? Or is the method flawed? :omg:

Ok, dig aside.... It is because of this very type of issue that purely positive reinforcement training never works. yes, elements of it can be used to polish some behaviors (Some field triallers use food to get a decent heel, not my thing, but hey...) but it is only effective for teaching behaviors and not gaining control. Control is the mindset that even when the dog feels there is something better to do it must reject that and comply with what the handler wants. Here's a big statement... In a high prey drive dog in a high prey drive situation it is impossible to achieve with positive reinforcement only.

Using the analogy I used earlier in the thread.. your dog creeping in a down is the equivalent of a human at a stop sign, no traffic coming, and not a cop in sight... = not one reason to comply with the sign and it is being ignored. Because the dog is at a distance you have no way to reward it for not creeping. You don;t use any negative reinforcement so it has no basis to understand that it must comply. To get it right you need to introduce a plain marked police car fifty meters from the intersection with the officer already having his book out. In other words, to get a truly polished result in a high distraction situation the dog has to believe there will be a negative consequence for non compliance... just like the real world is for everyone and everything else. :cool:

If I was working with a dog with this issue all that would be required to correct the "creeping" in quite short order would be a step toward the dog. That and "Oi" are the lightest corrections used and in a well raised dog, the ones used 90% of the time. Going back to my other posts it is the equivalent of the "warning" from the leader. Non compliance at that point simply requires the handler continue. If the dog is reached then it is taken back, the command re-given, quite unceremoniously and it is repeated until the dog realizes non compliance will bring with it a negative consequence. The majority of dogs, if your earlier training is sound, will correct themselves on the first step. Why? The leader moving in is a warning that what it is doing is unacceptable. If the leader has respect the dog wants to do two things... 1) Not piss the "boss" off and 2) remove the psychological pressure it now feels as the leader is warning... the only way to relieve that pressure is to comply, and the smart handler backs off the instant the dog complies. The dog's entire mindset becomes one of "I remain in a stress free happy state when I comply". It may have better things to do, but they do not over-ride the respect it has for the leader. Where most people stuff it up is they go from extreme to the other, either no negative or way too much. The dog is never given the option to adjust it's behavior and in doing so relieve its own pressure and please the handler.

How do you approach this? I really don;t know? If you haven;t established the relationship by which the dog respects your position as leader and you cannot do that with positives alone, (although many if not most, misunderstand leadership and if they are or are not the leader) If the dog does not accept that there are consequences to non-compliance how on earth would you fix it. I guess you could sit him down and have a chat and explain it to him... you could ignore it, or you could start to re-evaluate your relationship with your dog knowing that if you rebuild the foundation of your relationship then you have the best of both world's a happy stress free dog that knows what is needed and required and no interest in flouting any of that because it has never worked for him in the past. That's how my dogs are raised.

Dogs only do what works for them or doesn't. If, from Day one, non compliance brings no reward they quickly lose it as a thought process. Unfortunately most handlers who go this route over use corrections and the punishments far outweigh the crime and ultimately create more confusion. The real art of training a dog to be under control is the art of correction. The art of correction starts with very low level corrections and dogs read the pattern so it is extremely rare, and i can;t think of a gun-dog breed tough enough to go there, that a dog will take this process to a place requiring harsh treatment, ear pinches etc.

I doubt you will accept much of this, but you might. If you want to try it I can share more info, if not, I won't waste my Saturday morning prattling on anymore....:pacman:

Footnote: There is one other important thing to consider and impossible for me to evaluate without seeing the dog. By looks of the photos i have seen your dog seems fairly robust and I'm guessing is not younger than 2 years but please correct me if I am wrong. Some younger dogs, usually bitches of breeds predisposed to softness (I.e: Springers) will often creep in from stops when young through insecurity. I usually don;t worry about this finding as they mature and gain confidence they fix it themselves. In that instance you should never "correct', even a step, for insecurity. But a trick which I have used and is useful is to get the dog out running around with someone with you the dog knows and is familiar with and accepting of. Walk casually but separately from the other person... when the dog is running close to the other person give the stop command. In even the softest of dogs the presence of the other person usually gives them enough confidence to stop and remain stopped. I did this with Cheyenne at 18 months (Very soft bitch) and fixed it in 15 minutes. I have since used the methodology on several others with the same result. Once, having experienced no great issue with stopping away from the boss usually just accept it easily.

Lastly, go for several very fast stops and releases quite quickly. The dog will learn the need to stop better by doing it several times for short durations than it will you starting off trying to achieve a stop and enforce it for a period of time. If the dog is insecure then the longer the stop the more the insecurity will build. Teach the lesson by giving the dog confidence it can do it. If the basic lesson is stop and don;t move until I say "OK" then several short ones will teach it far more than one long one. Practise with the short ones will see the long ones just fall into place.

Interesting post Ruff, tx for taking the time. that "oi" and step closer sounds like the LOOK most moms perfect, nothing more needed to let a child now you'd better stop that shit right now or there'llbe consequences :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by ebf

Interesting post Ruff, tx for taking the time. that "oi" and step closer sounds like the LOOK most moms perfect, nothing more needed to let a child now you'd better stop that shit right now or there'llbe consequences :thumbsup:

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I might have confused that a bit. You don;t need the "Oi" with the step closer, just the step closer... The "Oi" might be used in another situation, usually on a moving dog. I only put them together as examples of the lowest level corrections.

The thing is though, if the dog doesn;t have proper respect it won;t give a shit, just like the kids.. LOL

In fact it's a similar thing to why so many kids are little shitbags today as to why so many dogs are. Everyone is so busy looking after their "self-esteem" they forget to teach them "SELF RESPECT".

Hey Ruff I enjoyed that read, I agree with a lot of what you have said. Thanks for the read and tips, good stuff. Just try to keep my feelings out of it though, "I doubt you will accept" etc, from what I remember you have not met me. Honestly dude it sucks because I think you are really a great trainer and I admire your passion but I feel that if you want to get people on your side and introduce them to the 'light' of your methods, you seriously need to work on your manners.

Anyway! Thank you, I did enjoy that. And yes my boy is just turned 2years and is a soft dog, he is not overly confident. He is like a large Spaniel size (30kilo but quite muss!).

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Originally Posted by Dougie

Hey Ruff I enjoyed that read, I agree with a lot of what you have said. Thanks for the read and tips, good stuff. Just try to keep my feelings out of it though, "I doubt you will accept" etc, from what I remember you have not met me. Honestly dude it sucks because I think you are really a great trainer and I admire your passion but I feel that if you want to get people on your side and introduce them to the 'light' of your methods, you seriously need to work on your manners.

Anyway! Thank you, I did enjoy that. And yes my boy is just turned 2years and is a soft dog, he is not overly confident. He is like a large Spaniel size (30kilo but quite muss!).

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Firstly, don;t tell me how to post or talk about my manners. I'll do what I want. You do the same thing constantly so don;t be a blimmin hypocrite.

I have not a care in the world if someone wants to adopt my methods or not. I put them out there and if people want to use them they can. i also point out the methods liberally spread around that simply do not work. the rest is up to them. I am not the one with the problems, I'm happy, my dogs are happy, it's up to lothers to use what works or not, their choice to do so won't change my day.
Likewise you haven;t met me...

If I tried training with treats my dog would laugh at me --seriously I cannot get him to eat his dinner at night ,he eats only when he wants and I leave him to it.

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Originally Posted by el borracho

If I tried training with treats my dog would laugh at me --seriously I cannot get him to eat his dinner at night ,he eats only when he wants and I leave him to it.

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Any dog interested in treats while hunting is not worth feeding (except Labs :( )

the bottomless pitt=lab:o

To the question of a stop...

Obviously there's no distractions here but he'll do it the same regardless of what's going on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hbknHdPkI8

Ok, good idea....

Much the same, he is hunting the reserve at Waihi Beach riddle with Pheasants and Quail, but he is just going into new cover with no hot scent around him... oh yeah and this is steady to shot, not whistle. Doesn't do it as well now, hardly hears the shot :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D_NAvKWeCc

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Originally Posted by Ruff

Jim, the long line works well on young dogs in the early stages but I have never known anyone I have shown the methodology too that did not break the golden rule of long lines and picked it up when the dog could see them. Renders them totally useless in the instant. they only serve a purpose if the line is stepped on. might do a video on it at some stage.

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I only used it as you told me to at that time, in the early stages. Gave him a few stops with it by standing on the twine, and I found by number 3-4 he was convinced I had supernatural powers... he would turn around and see me giving him the stop signal hands empty and wonder what just happened! reliable sit at distance to the upper extent of his range (vizsla range mind you haha)

good info guys-i always hand held the cord.mind if im teaching quartering with whistle i still would hand hold a jerk the cord

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Originally Posted by el borracho

good info guys-i always hand held the cord.mind if im teaching quartering with whistle i still would hand hold a jerk the cord

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This will sound patronising but it's not intended to be, it's just the only way i know how explain the principle properly is start at the beginning.

Knowing a dog struggles to calculate.. i.e. it sees an empty piece of road, it sees a car 50 meters away heading in it's direction. It cannot calculate or rationalize that by the time it gets to the middle of the road the car will be there too. So it gets hit by a car. But, and here's bloody hoping, it survives and recovers. Having had the experience it now knows it exists, but it cannot "imagine" what might happen, it has to experience it.

How does that apply to the long line?

If your dog is wearing a long line it knows it has a long line on, it knows it is attached to a check chain, it knows it is dragging it. If you pick it up, it immediately experiences how you control it and it connects you to the rope and collar. The only real practical lesson in this is teaching it how long a piece of rope is. If you stand on it instead, it does not see how you do it and reacts in the way Pointer has described. So long as you won't overdo do it and proceed intelligently with similarly based methods the dog grows up believing you can reach out and touch it anywhere. You only have to disciplined enough not to show it you can't. In the beginning you have to change direction every time, and the split second the dog feels the rope come tight. In this way the dog relates having to watch your path of travel or risk a correction. and if you peep the turn whistle as you do it they learn to turn in few minutes. Just standing on it yourself and not moving will not communicate much, they need the body language to get it. Later when accustomed to this you can simply, as the dog powers away from you, give the pre-taught stop whistle and stand on the rope and bring the dog to a stop. when it stops and looks back at you hold up your pre-taught hand stop and re-blow the stop whistle letting him know he did the right thing. Let him wait a few seconds and then [I]do not call him in/[I] give a turn whistle and cast him off in the other direction. This puts him under no pressure so there no real negative with the stop. He continues on from the stop still having fun, still under your guidance. He is learning that fun, compliance and a lack of pressure come from happily following your requirements... of course be ready for the time the cocky alter ego turns up, but that's all part of the process. He will connect all the rest in a split second... careful guidance forward gives a great result. I never teach a dog to stop or go into a down while returning to me though, for several reasons... it's intimidating to the dog and carries high pressure with it. because of that it can, in some circumstances, be used as a correction. Because of this it's very easy to achieve. but lastly I can;t think of a single use for it in the real world.

Another point though To each their own but I wouldn't teach quartering on a rope personally. I'd personally go through the handling issues first, exactly like what is being discussed here until you have a really responsive turn whistle. Graduate the dog into hunting environments (Try to ease it into game, ideally the first couple of runs will be on barren ground.) and I'd walk out the pattern, then use the turn whistle and my body language to turn into the next cast etc.... The dog picks up on this very quickly, because at this stage it is a really fun game for the pup.

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Well, what's an emergency stop? I'm guessing a "special" command it actually obeys????

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I have to come back to this because I was being flippant when I addressed it.

There's no such thing as emergency stop. If trained well the dog should respect any command instantly and without question. What you are after is a STOP.

From what I see people get way to flowery with training at times, then they confuse themselves and of course the dog.
First thing you've got to do is decide what the hound actually needs to do.
Every dog, and I do mean EVERY DOG needs to know when to stop, so of course that should be real high on the list and be the most simple. Myself stop is via a single dropping whistle. If it's a fine breed that I'm happy to put the time into then there will be hand signals added as well.
Then they all need to come, that around here now is a single raising whistle. Of course these two need to be THEconsistent, no matter what may happen. For me they first get the stop one and a few seconds to take that in then the come signal rings out.
Then there is all the other shit you can add, yes I've added it to dog's but frankly if the fucking thing is any good it will be on auto pilot and will know that shit already even though you may not...

good solid advice Ruff and ill practice your method on the new bitch,sadly she will already be 13-14 months once landed without any training on her through some of the very formative months of puppyhood

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Originally Posted by Wirehunt

From what I see people get way to flowery with training at times, then they confuse themselves and of course the dog.
First thing you've got to do is decide what the hound actually needs to do.
Every dog, and I do mean EVERY DOG needs to know when to stop, so of course that should be real high on the list and be the most simple. Myself stop is via a single dropping whistle. If it's a fine breed that I'm happy to put the time into then there will be hand signals added as well.
Then they all need to come, that around here now is a single raising whistle. Of course these two need to be THEconsistent, no matter what may happen. For me they first get the stop one and a few seconds to take that in then the come signal rings out.
Then there is all the other shit you can add, yes I've added it to dog's but frankly if the fucking thing is any good it will be on auto pilot and will know that shit already even though you may not...

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i have to agree with a large part of this. My dogs all only have three commands on the whistle. Stop, turn, come. As an added refinement hand signals are brought in, not 100% needed, but bloody handy and time and game saving.

The ultimate is a dog that knows it's job. the things i require like steady to flush, shot, and game is all taught to be reflexive so it doesn't require a command, it's just what the dog does... like brick in the video above. Again, many won;t need those things. i do. These leads to a dog that knows it's job. personally i prefer to hunt a dog and not have to give any commands at all. I do it a lot now with the old boy cause he can;t hear me anyway, but he knows what to do. Walking for half an hour with a dog working with you and not requiring a single command while still working with you the whole time is the ultimate for me. The only command I would give vocally in that situation is an "OK" to go and fetch something.

I do see a lot of problems in dogs brought here caused by over training. Over training can lead to a lot of confusion until the dog can;t get anything right. You have to remember they are dogs not physicists. Also over keenness by handlers. i see a lot of pointing type dogs crowd their birds badly and this is usually taught behavior by people desperate to see their dog point so they push it in on game they should be busting themselves and chastising the dog for not holding... etc...

Most people spend a lot more time training their dogs than i do.

Having said that, it's a horses for courses thing. I have had a heap of mates who over the years have hunted successfully (By their standard) over completely untrained dogs running on whatever it has. You can get these easy... you just keep shooting the non biddible naturals. :wtfsmilie: I have never believed there is much in training that teaches a dog bugger all about hunting. That's what we get when we seek out great genetics... It's really just control and polish we can bring to the table. Exposure to hunting is where a dog learns to hunt, track, work runners etc.. we don;t really teach that... many dogs don;t get enough exposure to it to get really good at it. Old brick is revered by many. I am not convinced he has any exceptional inheriant abilities many of the other ballyblacks don;t have (Though Whitehead still thinks he's the best one Jim has produced). But he's hunted a lot... at one stage working preserves up to three days a week and then wild hunting on other days. He knows more about pheasants than I do.

In the end it's personal choice. Like me with photography... I have a pretty decent digital SLR but still do 99% of my stuff on auto and get pictures as a result. Some flowery types will wank on about lenses and apertures and iso's and all that other slightly limp wristed stuff and get better pics... but we all get pics. :P

My GWP's are coming along nicely, but 1 thing I am having trouble with is getting them to stop on command when they are free running.
They are very good on a loose lead, but when free running and they see another dog, duck, hare, people on bikes etc they just don't listen.
They're both bitches and about 7mths old now.

Should I try a long lead? I've never had to use 1 before so have no idea what to do.
How long should the lead be, 30ft?
Do I just let them run with it loosely and then only pull back if they don't stop on command?

Are they running together when this happens?

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Originally Posted by cambo

My GWP's are coming along nicely, but 1 thing I am having trouble with is getting them to stop on command when they are free running.
They are very good on a loose lead, but when free running and they see another dog, duck, hare, people on bikes etc they just don't listen.
They're both bitches and about 7mths old now.

Should I try a long lead? I've never had to use 1 before so have no idea what to do.
How long should the lead be, 30ft?
Do I just let them run with it loosely and then only pull back if they don't stop on command?

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No No and No and you didn't read it. Sorry but you're on a slippery slope... I wouldn't have given them that exposure to chasing... but anyway. fixable, but get onto it, if you teach them to chase, they will and it can be hell's own job to get the to stop.