Thread: Fat Labs

You got that right EeeBee

It's funny you say that EBs, I'd like to ask a question as I know nothing of shows having attended one (and plan to keep it at that number).. I was at the petrol station the other day and the lady let a Brittany out to pee in the park opposite. She was on the way to a show or some such in Gisborne and we got talking about brittanies. It appears her one was a show champion, which even with my untrained eye was a pretty poor example. Certainly not the continental-type Breton I'm used to seeing.. Anyway, I'd imagine turning up with a minority breed would make for easy bench wins wouldn't it? How can you compare dogs if its the only one there?

Good question @Pointer...well, they are SUPPOSED to judge to the breed standard!!!...as in, does this example meet the tenets of the breed standard more/less than the next, and so on...the difficulty for judges in this country is that the exhibits are either what some call NZ Brittanys or American type...the majority of Brittanys here are a mix of both types...so when you show an EB, most judges will not know what they are looking at...so to be fair to them, I guess you can sort of understand why a judge would not give my male a challenge...simply because the dog just does not look like anything the judge had seen before...but back to the subject!!!! A minority breed in my experience is rarely ever put up in the group line up...I feel that it is because some judges possibly feel that it is probably better to take the safe option, even if in their mind and hearts the minority breed animal is superior and is truly correct to the breed standards. Then there was that incident in Sydney...when an European judge disqualified every Brittany in the ring because none were correct to standard...he told my spaniel friend, well that is that, I will never be asked to judge here again!!

As an addend to the above...I am not knocking the show people per se...it is simply that if you do have a minority breed, you will have to accept that most judges will not be familiar with your minority breed, or go to shows where there are European judges who do know...

or better still go to a versatile test where your dog is benched by the same 3 judges who just watched it work.
had the show question bought up again for my dogs, that was the answer i gave.

i think you are able to test under the jghv format tori, includes breed show.

yes Judges should judge to the breed standard, but they all interpret the standard differently, in the Case of the Labrador breed Standard in the first 3 lines of general appearance in every standard I have read, NZ Aust, UK, FCI, Swedish etc, the word Broad is used 3 times, for example The UK general appearance says "Strongly built, short coupled, very active; broad in skull; broad and deep through chest and ribs; broad and strong over loins and hindquarters. " Now while the fat Labradors are FAT, and don't adhere to the standard I don't think many of the "field Labradors" would meet the Breed Standard either. I do think a Labrador should be capable of doing both show and hunting and that is the problem, MOST show dogs will hunt but very few ( if any) field type Labradors would do OK in the ring.If I can work out how to post photos I will post a couple of "show" Labradors out hunting

These were taken while out hunting, unfortunately my husband hates me going hunting with him because I take the camera and like to slow the action down to get photos, these are all working dogs but are also all show Champions, one bred in NZ the other two Europe.

the division between a working lab and a show example is best explained by talking about two standards, rather than just the one.
both types are more than capable enough to suit the average kiwi duck shooter, picking up a few dozen ducks a year and pushing out the odd rooster, quail or rabbit is not rocket science in canine terms.... up the working environment, like driven shoots 2-3 times a week and you will see why the split is there, putting a show title on any dog is a sport in it's own right, and there are many breeders with a foot in both camps.

Originally Posted by kawhia

the division between a working lab and a show example is best explained by talking about two standards, rather than just the one.
both types are more than capable enough to suit the average kiwi duck shooter, picking up a few dozen ducks a year and pushing out the odd rooster, quail or rabbit is not rocket science in canine terms.... up the working environment, like driven shoots 2-3 times a week and you will see why the split is there, putting a show title on any dog is a sport in it's own right, and there are many breeders with a foot in both camps.

You are correct, but to me there should not be 2 standards, both camps ( Show and Hunting) need to up their game and breed to as close as possible to the one standard, I guess it is also a question of what you want from your dogs, do you want a dog that never stops, never has much down time is always ready for action 12 months of the year full on 100% of the time, one that would go completely insane if left in a kennel for a couple of days ( not that I am advocating this) because of work commitments etc etc etc, or do you want one that will retrieve all the birds you shoot, track a deer/pig etc not use the kids as skittles, is quite happy to go hunting as often as you want to go but is equally just as happy to spend time with the family if unable to get out for a hunt, one is much easier to live with, having said all that most of my pups go to hunters, god forbid some are even trialing. As for driven hunts our son used his dog on these hunts completely show bred, again my argument ( if you call it that) is while his dog could work these hunt's every week he would have been equally at home in the show ring, this to me is the mark of a true Labrador .

Great to have you on the forum Ducdog - it will be great to have a person with dual purpose Labs in mind
I love the look of your dogs - real class for the show ring and obviously very powerful for hunting
Not sure what sort of dogs Greg Duley had on his TV show - but it amazed me how much weight they were carrying in their back packs and the sort of country he took them through - they seemed to be very powerful animals

he has a Chesapeake.

Originally Posted by Ducdog

You are correct, but to me there should not be 2 standards, both camps ( Show and Hunting) need to up their game and breed to as close as possible to the one standard, I guess it is also a question of what you want from your dogs, do you want a dog that never stops, never has much down time is always ready for action 12 months of the year full on 100% of the time, one that would go completely insane if left in a kennel for a couple of days ( not that I am advocating this) because of work commitments etc etc etc, or do you want one that will retrieve all the birds you shoot, track a deer/pig etc not use the kids as skittles, is quite happy to go hunting as often as you want to go but is equally just as happy to spend time with the family if unable to get out for a hunt, one is much easier to live with, having said all that most of my pups go to hunters, god forbid some are even trialing. As for driven hunts our son used his dog on these hunts completely show bred, again my argument ( if you call it that) is while his dog could work these hunt's every week he would have been equally at home in the show ring, this to me is the mark of a true Labrador .

most of the fence jumping English labs I've seen do all that and can still put in a solid weeks work...all had an off switch.
I would say given a full work load even a show lab would soon be non standard as they would soon change once a few ribs start showing.... but I would also expect the pedigree to show up and the dog could break down or quit.

Originally Posted by kawhia

most of the fence jumping English labs I've seen do all that and can still put in a solid weeks work...all had an off switch.
I would say given a full work load even a show lab would soon be non standard as they would soon change once a few ribs start showing.... but I would also expect the pedigree to show up and the dog could break down or quit.

Guess mine aren't normal then, as they don't quit they just keep going, but I want a Labrador that can do it all, as for breaking down , it is actually a field bred Lab I would expect to break down first, simply because show lines have more health tests as a rule done on them , some field lines wouldn't know what a hip or elbow score was or are never tested for PRA or EIC. I am told in NZ EIC tends to be more prevalent in the field lines than the show lines again simply because some out there don't test. I do so love the ads that say they don't health test their dogs because they have never had a problem, the only ad that should be is a TUI ad. At the end of the day there is no right or wrong answer just peoples personal preference as to what they want to hunt with and live with.

of the lines I have been looking at for a few years now, all health test, the health testing is the first thing tooted by the show side I might add, both blame the other for not testing.... I suppose the field lines you mention need to be split into the actual working lines and the common and I hate to say it, back yard specials.
EIC testing is gaining ground with many of the top uk working kennels and it is great to see.