It's an oldie but a goodie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
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It's an oldie but a goodie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Chris breeds some very nice labs, but his lines vary and some are exceptionally soft.. dare I say too soft. Be careful and be sure of what you're getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by 00 buckshot
I know Chris well and he knows I hold this opinion.
No doubt Kawhia has already been in touch to get your genes! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Topdog
Got one coming from Peter jones.
I still think you have. :pacman:
You're telling the story....
Fixed it for ya :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Fuck knows, you're the one telling the story ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
Not sure if I'm getting my replies back correctly so apologies to all if things aren't appearing in the right place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
Personally I've used labs and yes they're good but after having a Working Cocker " Not a Show Cocker!!"I'd never go back. Personal preference I suppose!
We know the difference mate, all good. Just caught in the crossfire of me winding "Kawhia" up who tends to wait at customs to jump on any new blood entering NZ :D
New Zealand's most successful Cocker handler and breeder in natural game trials... Bob Whitehead with some of his charges.
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if you have the time for a spaniel go for it,a dog is as soft as you make it if you are hard then you will break a dog, i have one of Chris,s bitches and she is a top dog
Not sure what you are on about. I have worked with many Keepersmoors Labradors and Chris has used my spaniels in his breeding program time and again. They are a kennel I recommend and I have no doubt you have a great dog, don't be so sensitive. I have also referred people to Chris, one bought a started dog for a good sum and took it out and it was gunshy. Extremely soft nature, to the point of requiring extremely subtle handling to make something of it. I do not know if Chris got that dog going well or not and as a man of integrity he took the dog back and fully refunded the mans money. He has since got a "Greymist" he is extremely happy with. As a commercial trainer who has worked with literally thousands of dogs over the years your contention that handling dictates nature is completely flawed. Glad your ONE is OK, I was being a bit more broad!Quote:
Originally Posted by 00 buckshot
I would gladly hunt over and own most Keepersmoors I have seen over the past 12-13 years or so of knowing Chris on a first hand basis, discussing dogs, drinking wine, having a cuppa at his Kaharoa kennels and being involved in his breeding programs and working with on at least four different pheasant shoots with him and I will say to anyone, use due diligence to ensure you are not getting a dog too soft for most people to make into something useful, they are in the minority of what he produces, but they are there. Chis is a good man with good dogs, but like all of us, nothing is perfect and it is not unrealistic for me to warn people to be careful. If you get a good one it will be as good as anything going. Hell the man has even bought two VERY good bottles of whiskey for the referrals I have made, just take a breath dude.
Tell us about that red cocker ruff. I have a not so secret desire to put a working red setter we have here to a cocker bitch :D
Good luck with that, it's Whiteheads :omg:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
Mate I reckon a P lab would be the berries heading for retirement, provides an income and if all else fails you'll get a nice room in prison, better and cheaper than a retirement village and if yr lucky a sex life of sorts! :)
OMG...:O_O: if for nothing else, it would be interesting...like walking through nettles with shorts on...:):)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
I find them so similar in temperament and personality I doubt it would be such a shock. And it would be more than interesting EBs, they would be useful. Enzo is the best spaniel I know :D
It has already been done, where do you think the colour came from in the first place.
Exactly. Both Erlandson and his mentor Nash spoke openly about it
Speak with an old kennel boy of his on Facebook, all the setters breeds and Irish water spaniels were used to save the wcs, and it is why you get a mix of colours in litters.
It's great to see. Also why you see the odd cocker still set game. Was it a kennel boy of Nash's? He could tell some stories!
Keith Erlandson.
Yep!
true enough ruff its like the people who choose the shy runt of the litter cos ''it needs us more'' but later cant figure why they have problems with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
or the bold pup while a good start boldness could be intractability to.
you can make or break a dog but nature starts from whelping almost.
It's good watching the debate on the Lab V the WCS but at the end of the day if they do their job does it matter? the WCS I've got was also the runt of the litter but put him alongside his siblings now and he's so much bigger and stronger "Doesn't necessarily make him a better dog" but he doesn't have any trouble in carrying a full sized big hare and he even retrieved a fox I shot. Don't be put off by the runt or quiet pup of the litter! The quiet ones I've found all have more sense I think and use their judgement better as they aren't the !rush in merchant!
I agree Topdog, everything is relative, I have placed several dogs because they were "too soft" for me but were perfect for someone else.
In the instance I refer I have seen dogs requiring extremely advanced handling to make anything of them. It's not just "soft" but soft to the point of constant timidity. Very hard to overcome and almost as bad as way too rambunctious.
I agree Topdog, everything is relative, I have placed several dogs because they were "too soft" for me but were perfect for someone else.
In the instance I refer I have seen dogs requiring extremely advanced handling to make anything of them. It's not just "soft" but soft to the point of constant timidity. Very hard to overcome and almost as bad as way too rambunctious.
I reckon a dog that can't take training pressure at all, is as bad as a dog that takes too much. I have certainly had both ends of the scale.
I reckon the pro might want a softer dog, that retains its training. The novice wants one hard enough that it will take every mistake you make with it and still be happy to see you in the mornings, despite its training!
I think that soft and timid are very different things...a timid dog is as useful a rubber spear...a soft dog on the other hand can prove to be a thinker...it is the human in the equation that will make or break...
That's true. I didn't mean to put kind and compliant on the same page as timid
im not saying it cant or doesnt happen topdog but what i am saying is that if your paying upteen dollars for a pup you want to minimise any chances of problems ie the sulky, shy , poorly done or even overly bold pup [read agresive] yes some overcome thier poor start but just as many if not more dont and end up becoming a sold offf nightmare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Topdog
what can i say ,if you can't train a Labrador, should i say any more
Nailed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 00 buckshot
if you cant get a lab to eat or root id say your done:DQuote:
what can i say ,if you can't train a Labrador, should i say any more
Yep time for a cat
jesus dont get me started on them the missus latest stray thinks shes her mother and sleeps with its paws wrapped around her head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
the stray tom we been feeding to has gone from shy as to pressing its nose against the backdoor and if that dont work it goes to the front and presses agaisnt the glass looking pathetic which i thought dogs had the monopoly on.
its now fatter than our cats due to the fact we aint the only people he,s visiting.
What a truly terrible thing to suggest! :yuush:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointer
It's time for a dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by gsp follower
can you imagine it a cat for retrieving :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
everytime it,d be either to cold to wet or just ''f off get it your bloody self its tea time aint it'';)
Some dogs take no training at all it just seems to be in their make up that they know what to do. I once had a cracking lurcher pup and at 6 months on his First race he killed a Leveret and carried it back & put it in my hand. Job done! I've seen Labs and cockers do likewise, very little effort needed for the natural stuff it's just learning the whistle really, comes from years of the correct strain in the breeding. I have to agree with a previous comment about soft and timid being different but I think a lot of it comes down to pure ability and I've always found independent dogs to be easier to train. Best thing I've done is every pup, the day it leaves the bitch is in the kennel outside on its own, they immediately take you as their best mate and keep everyone including kids, away from them for a couple of weeks. The first 2 or 3 nights are howl fests but it pays off.
I heard an old fella ask someone once "Who's your best mate? your wife or your dog?" given that the blokes wife was with him his answer was easy. Then the old fella said don't think for once it's your missus son, lock them both in the boot of your car, sod off to the pub for an hour then when you finish on the grog let them out and see who's most pleased to see you ha ha. ( So remember it's the kennel first ) and not for the wife, unless your into that of course.
