Thread: Llewellin Setter breed

I don't know Sabine Van Zurpele in person. I am in spaniels myself. My mentor in spaniels is a personal friend of Sabine and through him I will try to have a look at her dogs and have a chat. I do know that the last 20/30 years none of their dogs proved anything in trials. I fully agree that trials are not everything, but it stays the only way to compare dogs in approx the same conditions. My mentor also was a strong believer in line(in)breeding (spaniels) as was Dr Guberti ( pointers) ,......... and many others. The only man who I know of, that was very succesfull with linebreeding was Robert Whele of Elhew fame. Most , just like my friend, ended with dogs wich where completely outdated and unable to compete with other breeders dogs.
As I am very keen myself to have a more profound idea how Sabine's dogs are bred, I'll try to keep you informed. This may take a few weeks, but I'll be back.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

The only man who I know of, that was very succesfull with linebreeding was Robert Whele of Elhew fame.

As you mentioned earlier, Dr. Gubertis' best dogs were the result of outcrosses, but if you look closely so where Mr. Wheles, notably through Guard Rail. For the outcrossing pundits on here ( not aimed at you Hales), we must remember this isn't merely complete outcrossing, but the outcrossing of one inbred strain to another. I feel people get too severe with the whole 'pure strain' idea, and perhaps a more gradual model such as Anders Wassbergs' in Sweden with his kennel of 'Black Lucky' pointers is the way to go.

Most , just like my friend, ended with dogs wich where completely outdated and unable to compete with other breeders dogs.

Interesting, as that seems to be the general concensus of Advies pointers, also bred under a 'closed pedigree'. Great game finders but lacking the pace and range of todays kennels. As a side note, there are a few guys putting current trials blood to the Advie blood with good results.

The 'Red Queen theory' is a an oldie but a goodie, thrashed to death by evolutionary biologists. But it does raise a very good question in this situation, and that is, why do people, particularly Americans, want to stick to breeding a strain of dogs under a name of a man who died nearly 90 years ago? What purpose does it serve? It certainly can't be for the improvement of a strain?

Don't get me wrong. I believe more in linebreeding, I only do an outcross when needed. The problem is that for some breeders linebreeding becomes the purpose. If it's not linebred it won't be good. I am not of that idea. Linebreeding should be there to improve the breed and not as a goal himself. Those I know put linebreeding as the only way and become kennelblind. In these blindness they use antything in the line good or bad, just because " the qualities are in the line" . They forget to cull anything what is substandard. I like to keep 50% of the dog and the dam in the line? Is this better ? Time will tell.

I should read " Snakefoot, the making of a champion" to get a better idea on Whele's work.

Your efforts would be greatly appreciated an i would be in your debt. I am afraid of what i may learn though with your services that she has out crossed and diluted her lines with English Setters by no intent of her own, but by being misled by the Americans. I would greatly hope to be proved wrong on this account.

I have been fortunate to this point to never have out crossed these Llewelins, what would be considered pure Bondhu in Llewellin terms, and not the Bondhu that the Americans considered to be pure. Only true European Bondhu, which if we compared DNA should be identical. That to me would be most fascinating to take two kennels almost one hundred years apart and compare DNA to see the likeliness. To this point though I have not been able to be successful as Poles( such as myself) are not considered highly regarded peoples.

But again, your efforts would be greatly appreciated.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

I don't know Sabine Van Zurpele in person. I am in spaniels myself. My mentor in spaniels is a personal friend of Sabine and through him I will try to have a look at her dogs and have a chat. I do know that the last 20/30 years none of their dogs proved anything in trials. I fully agree that trials are not everything, but it stays the only way to compare dogs in approx the same conditions. My mentor also was a strong believer in line(in)breeding (spaniels) as was Dr Guberti ( pointers) ,......... and many others. The only man who I know of, that was very succesfull with linebreeding was Robert Whele of Elhew fame. Most , just like my friend, ended with dogs wich where completely outdated and unable to compete with other breeders dogs.
As I am very keen myself to have a more profound idea how Sabine's dogs are bred, I'll try to keep you informed. This may take a few weeks, but I'll be back.

Where do you live Levernt ? Not in New Zealand ?

I live in the US. just south of the Canadian border in a German Settlement area.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

Where do you live Levernt ? Not in New Zealand ?

East or West ? A friend told me that North and South Dakota is a paradise for pheasant hunters. Montana also seems a hunters paradise.

Central US in the state of Wisconsin. Here we have pheasant in the south, Grouse and woodcock in the north out my back door. In have hunted pheasant in the dakotas, but it gets rather pricey to travel to another state to hunt. I prefer partidge anyways. In the spring i will raise some pheasants and release them into some fields that i farm and run the dogs on them to train and keep them fresh on pheasants. In the north we get too much snow for pheasants to live. As i speak we have about 1m on the ground. The Dakotas are good and is Montana, they also have a good population of a small partidge called a Hungarian Partridge. They are more wide open and vast plains were Wisconsin is all hardwood and swamps in the north and plains in the south.

Originally Posted by Hales Smut

East or West ? A friend told me that North and South Dakota is a paradise for pheasant hunters. Montana also seems a hunters paradise.

The area of the great lakes I presume? Must be a nice place. These Hungarian partridges are the "native" partridges to Western Europe? Native in the UK, Belgium, Holland, Germany, France, ....... The redlegged partridge is a bird of the south. Southern France, Spain, .... They get scarce here to lack of open space and very bad farming. Still good populatians in Poland, Serbia, Croatia, ......
Do you also have deer, bear, moose, elk, ..?