Fair enough RCGSP , I suppose at the end of the day its about man and dog and if they have understood and practiced the discipline expected for whatever type of trial they are involved in as there is more than one type of field trial
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Fair enough RCGSP , I suppose at the end of the day its about man and dog and if they have understood and practiced the discipline expected for whatever type of trial they are involved in as there is more than one type of field trial
I never hunted quail in North America but have followed the ruffies and the woodcock...Quote:
Originally Posted by RCGSP
Heaps of fun but completely different than quail. There are separate grouse trials including the endurance trials.Quote:
Originally Posted by EeeBees
RCGSP HOW re the Grouse trials over there ? Are they in woodland cover.Are you in the Auckland area RCGSP?
Yes the grouse trials are in the mountains in the forests.
There's some pictures here
Endurance - Field Trials Articles : Strideaway
Yeah I'm in AKL at the moment
Interesting commentry
Fraudulent Papers
With the Llewellin Setter pups demanding 3-4 times what the average English Setter pup sells for, and FDSB having allowed breeders to hand write individual puppy papers without any litter registration requirements for many, many years, is there any wonder that FDSB could be the leader in fraudulent papers especially within the Llewellin Setter breed today.
Some of us have watched English Setter Kennels become Llewellin Setter Kennels virtually over night and German Shorthair Pointers become almost all white with little ticking and have the famous English Pointer face in just a few years. You would think someone over there would care, but not when the main goal is to win big running trials judged on horse back. All the way up to the 90's one could easily manufacture generations of old litter papers dating back many generations and years so that breeder's and the dogs were no longer a live to verify.
The fact is, nothing was in place to stop dog jockeys (dog dealers) from buying local litters of English Setters for $100-$200 a pup and resell them for $500 plus as Llewellin Setters. DNA parent testing today only proves who the parents of the dogs are and nothing to do with their purity as a breed. Maybe DNA parenting has put an end to switching papers for now on, but it will never unravel all the false papering that was done for years and years without any checks and balances.
This is why "Straight Creek" which includes some well know Field Trail Llewellin Setters today and many others using different named bloodlines are NOT allowed to be transferred from FDSB to IPDBA registry today. Since, they started with big running FDSB English Setters, is their any wonder that they so well in the Llewellin Setter trials, but have VERY questionable pedigrees as far as being accurate or pure "Llewellin Setters" and are banned from IPDBA registration even as an English Setter. Unlike, FDSB who has registered Setters of questionable pedigree as English Setters in the past, a false pedigree is a false pedigree regardless what breed and IPDBA will NOT register them at all.
We actually read on some websites offering Llewellin Setters for sale, that their dogs have been DNA tested proving their dogs are pure Llewellin Setters. This would be funny if not so sad to think these people are actually breeding Llewellin Setters today and can make so outrageous statements when anyone with any sense or genetic knowledge would know that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to DNA test a pup all the way back to Mr. Llewellin's personal dogs, since they all have died and been gone for over 100 years. Let me make it clear, it is IMPOSSIBLE to tell by DNA testing the differences between the English Setter breed and a Llewellin Setter Breeds. It is probably impossible to even tell by DNA any of the Setter breeds from one another, because not only were all Setters one breed at one time, because Llewellin Setters bloodlines were used in the development of ALL the Setter breeds, long before they were separated as different breeds. A Setter was a Setter regardless of color in the 1800's.
Always, keep in mind the fact that DNA testing is only as honest and trusted as the person who takes the DNA sample and they are only testing the pup is out of the parents on the papers and not if they are pure anything. I'm not saying it a bad idea, just that it does not have anything about proving what their pedigrees are past the dogs that have been tested.
True Llewellin Setters
Also, we see people now who are making FALSE claims to MISLEAD the public, by making totally false statements about what a "true Llewellin Setter must be registered with certain registry". To think these people are actually allowed to breed dogs and tell such ridiculous LIES. Are they just that dumb, pushing an agenda, or are they simply that unethical? Either way, how can they be trusted with breeding dogs. What is wrong with getting your facts straight and telling the truth.
Just like with ANY other BREED of dog, Llewellin Setters can be registered with MANY REGISTRIES that a person likes that recognizes them. The fact is, that Llewellin Setters have always been registered in other registries instead of FDSB (American Field), in fact, there ancestors were registered in the first registry in England known as the Kennel Club 'KC', long before AKC or FDSB even existed and were and are registered in a number of registries in the USA, Canada, Europe and around the world today. So claiming that "one must be FDSB registered to be one" is simply a joke. In fact, FDSB does not even fully recognize them as a breed and never did and has done everything in their power to eliminate the separation from the English Setter breed. They are still only recognized within the English Setter breed in their registry as a strain. Maybe now that they are making so much money DNAing them now they will stop trying to eliminate them, but the truth is, FDSB is registering dogs that NLSA and IPDBA has banned from registration because of having false pedigrees.
How pompous for someone to proclaim that their personal registry of choice, is the "only true Llewellin Setter Registry" , especially when FDSB has NEVER even recognized the Llewellin Setter as a BREED, only as a STRAIN of the ENGLISH SETTER. While IPDBA and some other registries FULLY recognize them as a UNIQUE BREED, known as a LLEWELLIN SETTER and have had the highest registration policies, while FDSB allowed breeder's to fill out litter apps for each pup without ever registering their litters. This policy a lone resulted in countless English Setter pups being false registered as them simply to double the value of their pups.
The NATIONAL LLEWELLIN SETTER ASSOCIATION 'NLSA', is the oldest LLewellin Setter organization in history and recognizes IPDBA as the "LLewellin Setter registry", because IPDBA recognizes the LLEWELLIN SETTER as a TRUE BREED and FDSB does NOT and NEVER HAS and has even allowed people to register them as English Setters. If the dogs pedigrees are fraudulent, then how can they allow them to be register as English Setters. Do they think so little of the English Setter breed and breeder's in their registry.
Also, it might be helpful to note that IPDBA does not register the many Llewellin Setters that have been known to be fraudulent, those breeder's and bloodlines have ALL been BARED from IPDBA registration, but they are STILL being freely used in FDSB Llewellin Setter breeding programs today and continue to be spread throughout the FDSB Llewellin Setter breed.
So we know FDSB has fraudulent Llewellin Setter and English Setter pedigrees and many questionable examples can be found in FDSB registered German Shorthair's and English Pointers. Can ANY FDSB pedigree be trusted?
As you can see from reading their website, Mike & Marie are very experienced, well educated, dedicated, faithful breeders, who put their all in their breeding program. They believe in having the highest breeding standards, breeding only the purest bloodlines, testing every dog before selecting only the very best, and taking full responsibility by having the best guarantee offered in the world.
Fraudulent FDSB papers? Say it ain't so :o
one mans opinion
Personal thoughts about Llewellin Setters
You will always get people knocking the ones who succeeded where they may have not had...the dog world is not always light and love...this we know...
the Russian connection
http://www.llewellin.com/LSARussianWinter95.pdf
So... did Mr. Argue reply?
No, but I am unsure if he received the email-his own site says theres a fault
I would like to have a conversation with you about Advie Llewellins in private if you do not mind. i will also message you directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
Good day sir.
who knows of the Setters Derrie Argue was breeding and if they were as authentic Llewellyn as he once said ??? also has anyone any knowledge of the whereabouts of any of these dogs
I will post to here instead of emailing directly.
Ok, i could spend hours and waste pages on the the purity of the Llewellin setter up to this point. But i will be brief as i can.
The initial purity questioning began with Sorensen and Argue, there was no love between the two gentleman. Both being inheritants of the last official Llewellins in the UK at the time. Sorensen ended up losing the kennel and the Llewellins were in such poor health were mostly put down. Some disappeared into other hands. So from there Derry was accused for breeding collies to the Llewellins which has been disproved.
Then Wolstenholm and Argue had no love either. I will not go into as i appreciate both gentlemen. They just did not get along and the kin still feel that way.
Derry stopped importing dogs to the US because all the breeders were combining his dogs with American Llewellins and still calling them Advie, the FDSB allowed this. Big mistake. So that made bad feelings between most breeders and Derry. But by that time almost every kennel in the US had Advie in the lineage and still do to this day. Americans haven't bred to an Advie in twenty years, but look at all the dogs that still carry the name. There are a few that do not have Advie and proclaim pure Bondhu( Madam Therea ) Which of course are still from Bannon as Advie are. Those who promote the Bondhu before Advie claim Derry and the collie breeding to promote themselves. Then some of American Bondhu breeders got caught up in the King fiasco. King was accused of breeding Llewelins to American English Setters and this was proven by the FDSB. This is when the OTHER Dog Stud book in America was created. It is a shame that all of King dogs were excluded from the FDSB because of this mishap since not all may have been bred to English Setters. When the FDSB started its DNA program they used pure Advie dogs that had not been bred in and to American dogs to create an example of a true Llewellin.
There are also so many more issues that i could go into that it will drive you nuts and disgust you. There is also the Madame Therea form Belgium Argue problem and then add in the gentleman from Italy Mario. But look at it this way. Every kennel in the world has an Advie dog in it,..Why? If people question this fact look at the breeders website and why to this day do they still advertise it. There are also a number of open source pedigree databases to peruse as well. But i will be the first to tell you, do not believe everything you read, and even if you find discrepancies with my statements that maybe. We may never know the whole truths. But it seems that sometimes the loudest ones are the ones who feel they need to prove something.
But this is the basis of the most of it as of now. But I am not expert on the subject and will always be open to conversations.
And as always i am always looking for more information on both English and Llewellins.
Good day.
Seems like there is working vs working bullshit just like working vs show bullshit. At the end of the day a working setter should be just that.
Okrzyki
Quote:
Originally Posted by upnorth uplander
?????Quote:
Originally Posted by levernt
Why would a man equally, if not more famous for his kennel of pointers, outcross his setters to collies when he had pointers there? Ridiculous.
You are Polish?Quote:
Originally Posted by levernt
Polack by virtue, american cause I have too.
Still dont know wtf this means , English plseQuote:
Originally Posted by levernt
Cheers
Cheers....Salute......Prost whichever you prefer
Cheers for that, post some pics of your setters
Welcome Levernt, we like setters here, put some pics up
I like your avater Jim, nearly as kool as mine
I find it curious how we must almost agonise over the trial systems in other countries...take the stubble quail trials in Australia...you simply cannot and never will have a comparable trial in this country...on another fora there are commentaries regarding the range of dogs and how some use the term 'woodcock dogs' for those dogs (Epagneul Breton) who work close...this term is almost used in a derogatory manner...but when hunting our riverbeds, the dog needs to be of the genre 'woodcock'...this to me is the joy of our gundogs, how with experience and exposure to his hunting environment he himself for the want of game will modify his range...any elitism is nonsensical dribble in my mind.
We have in this country what we have...we either make the most of what we have, or we man or girl up and import from lines that will enhance what is here or what is yet to be imported.
That tri-colour is beautiful...(in my view, and I know nothing of the breed!!)
Ms à Goes was a bit of a strange person. She had plenty of dogs from the original lines, but she lost every bit of feeling with the modern setter and pointer world. She kept her line pure, but was unable to compete against more modern dogs coming from Italy and France. I must say that I saw one extremely good shooting dog from her breeding.
She refused to cross any foreign blood into her dogs. Dr Guberti , the pope of Italian pointers, once said that there is a huge diffrence between breeding dogs and trial dogs.
His breeding stuff was pure linebred (inbred), but the trial stuff was always a first generation outcross. I tnink she also should have done a slight outcross on a few occasions to refresh the genes. Thans breeding these outcrosses back in the line.
Her kennel is still succeeded by her niece Sabine Van Zurpele and Monique Renard.
You are as far as I have read and spoke with a gentleman in Italy correct. I little more depth on the subject Sabine and a gentlem by the name of Mario work quite closely on the Italian Llewellins. As of recent though, they took some American Llewellin back into their stock via Lynhill Kennels. There might be an issue there though as Lynhill may have been caught up in the King English/llewellin setter debacle. Lynhill has made inroads with A Gos some years back and he imported her stock into the U.S.. he then bred to some American Llewelins and my dogs from Derry(Advie). Lynhill, Mario and Sabine to some extant are now interbreding these dogs with the pure Itallian Llewellins and the possible King English. I am not sure if they are in knnowledge of this fact and I have tried to discuss this with them, but will not oblige a conversation about this. I had attempted to contact Mario about his lines and rebreeding back to the Advie line but he had no interest. So whether that line has been tainted or not is not known for sure since they chose not to DNA match with mine.
That is how the Llewellin breeders work though, its sad really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
Can you attest to my knowledge or have I been misled. You being as close as you are have you ever been in contact with Ms a Goes or her niece? I would like to hear more if you would have aby more knowledge. Especially if I am incorrect on any account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
Iam sure both you and Hales can give a great insight into the Llewellin bred dogs and look forward to hearing more from both of you -many thanks
I don't know Sabine Van Zurpele in person. I am in spaniels myself. My mentor in spaniels is a personal friend of Sabine and through him I will try to have a look at her dogs and have a chat. I do know that the last 20/30 years none of their dogs proved anything in trials. I fully agree that trials are not everything, but it stays the only way to compare dogs in approx the same conditions. My mentor also was a strong believer in line(in)breeding (spaniels) as was Dr Guberti ( pointers) ,......... and many others. The only man who I know of, that was very succesfull with linebreeding was Robert Whele of Elhew fame. Most , just like my friend, ended with dogs wich where completely outdated and unable to compete with other breeders dogs.
As I am very keen myself to have a more profound idea how Sabine's dogs are bred, I'll try to keep you informed. This may take a few weeks, but I'll be back.
good words Hales and your efforts are appreciated !
As you mentioned earlier, Dr. Gubertis' best dogs were the result of outcrosses, but if you look closely so where Mr. Wheles, notably through Guard Rail. For the outcrossing pundits on here ( not aimed at you Hales), we must remember this isn't merely complete outcrossing, but the outcrossing of one inbred strain to another. I feel people get too severe with the whole 'pure strain' idea, and perhaps a more gradual model such as Anders Wassbergs' in Sweden with his kennel of 'Black Lucky' pointers is the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
Interesting, as that seems to be the general concensus of Advies pointers, also bred under a 'closed pedigree'. Great game finders but lacking the pace and range of todays kennels. As a side note, there are a few guys putting current trials blood to the Advie blood with good results.Quote:
Most , just like my friend, ended with dogs wich where completely outdated and unable to compete with other breeders dogs.
The 'Red Queen theory' is a an oldie but a goodie, thrashed to death by evolutionary biologists. But it does raise a very good question in this situation, and that is, why do people, particularly Americans, want to stick to breeding a strain of dogs under a name of a man who died nearly 90 years ago? What purpose does it serve? It certainly can't be for the improvement of a strain?
Don't get me wrong. I believe more in linebreeding, I only do an outcross when needed. The problem is that for some breeders linebreeding becomes the purpose. If it's not linebred it won't be good. I am not of that idea. Linebreeding should be there to improve the breed and not as a goal himself. Those I know put linebreeding as the only way and become kennelblind. In these blindness they use antything in the line good or bad, just because " the qualities are in the line" . They forget to cull anything what is substandard. I like to keep 50% of the dog and the dam in the line? Is this better ? Time will tell.
I should read " Snakefoot, the making of a champion" to get a better idea on Whele's work.
Your efforts would be greatly appreciated an i would be in your debt. I am afraid of what i may learn though with your services that she has out crossed and diluted her lines with English Setters by no intent of her own, but by being misled by the Americans. I would greatly hope to be proved wrong on this account.
I have been fortunate to this point to never have out crossed these Llewelins, what would be considered pure Bondhu in Llewellin terms, and not the Bondhu that the Americans considered to be pure. Only true European Bondhu, which if we compared DNA should be identical. That to me would be most fascinating to take two kennels almost one hundred years apart and compare DNA to see the likeliness. To this point though I have not been able to be successful as Poles( such as myself) are not considered highly regarded peoples.
But again, your efforts would be greatly appreciated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
Where do you live Levernt ? Not in New Zealand ?
I live in the US. just south of the Canadian border in a German Settlement area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hales Smut
