Time to submit against tail docking and dew claw removal ban (they never give in )

Ducdog, you raise an interesting conundrum in that there are people who will dock puppy tails who are not members of the NZCDB...the audits and procedures for members of the NZCDB are, to say the least, stringent...those in the law making department of this country obviously have the condition where what you don't see, doesn't matter...out of sight, out of mind...interesting that Scotland are repealing the docking of working dogs...

With regard to neo-nat puppies being taken to veterinary clinics within three days (72hours) of birth for tail removal with the use of anesthesics is neither safe practise nor good husbandry in my view...and if the puppy dies as a result of the anesthesia what recompense is there to the breeder...

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Originally Posted by Wildman

Yep nothing stops him when he is on fresh scent. Was at the river on point next to a big wasp nest yesterday and when I noticed, I had to drag him away, covered in black and yellow germans, and chuck him in the river... He has a bit of a swollen ear this morning...

Anyway I'm no saying that it shouldn't be done, just that I have a dewclaw and long tail working dog, and have not seen the supposed ill effects of his non-conformity.

Actually the thing that does get hurt the most on him is his ears, they get the odd cut and bleed like all hell. Should I dock those?

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you.l only need to see a ripped out dew claw once wildman to want to make sure the risk of it is minimised[

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i note the powerful farm lobby is not included in this legislation

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if they were serious they,d of done something about the apalling treatment by some of bobby calves years ago.
which may get more wide spread as they become a bigger cost with buggerall return for more under pressure dairy operations.

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What I do think needs to be policed is the docking of puppies by back yard breeders, I see so many puppies ( Rottis in particular) on trade me or face book for sale and they have been docked by any old smuck with either a knife or pair of scissors when I ask about who docked the puppies I get all sorts of abuse and the " Oh we have docked like this for years", pups don't feel it and it doesn't hurt them they are all good straight after it is done.

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the point is all the rules in the world make f all difference if the will or ability to enforce them isnt there.rules will not stop the backyarders never have never will
there are quite strong rules now to deal with animal cruelty but if judges dont impose real penalties wheres the deterrent?
theres plenty of knee jerk rules made that mostly turn out to only penalise the law abiding but well thought out consultive rules worked thru by actual end users are practicly non existent.
the spca are to compromised to consult on cruelty and hunting/working dog matters because they hate both thinking making a dog do what it was breed for is a breach of its civil rights.
safe ??enough said thier christmas bash at little river was a eye opener to thier rediculous vegatables for all mania.
leave all animals free wild and with a unfettered lack of control on them.
they,d be the first to moan if stock got killed wandering where it shouldnt but ofcourse we shouldnt be farming in the first place:D
i had a bit of sympathy for many of thier positions on factory farming still do but old hans im afraid is batshit crazy in his hippie, sandal, sweater, world.

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Originally Posted by gsp follower

the point is all the rules in the world make f all difference if the will or ability to enforce them isnt there.rules will not stop the backyarders never have never will
there are quite strong rules now to deal with animal cruelty but if judges dont impose real penalties wheres the deterrent?
theres plenty of knee jerk rules made that mostly turn out to only penalise the law abiding but well thought out consultive rules worked thru by actual end users are practicly non existent.
the spca are to compromised to consult on cruelty and hunting/working dog matters because they hate both thinking making a dog do what it was breed for is a breach of its civil rights.
safe ??enough said thier christmas bash at little river was a eye opener to thier rediculous vegatables for all mania.
leave all animals free wild and with a unfettered lack of control on them.
they,d be the first to moan if stock got killed wandering where it shouldnt but ofcourse we shouldnt be farming in the first place:D
i had a bit of sympathy for many of thier positions on factory farming still do but old hans im afraid is batshit crazy in his hippie, sandal, sweater, world.

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Yes you are right, all the rules in the world mean nothing if they aren't enforced, don't even get me started on SAFE, animal rights my arse ! If they were so concerned about animals suffering they would have done something then and there about the calves on the side of the road and being abused at the pet food factory, OH no they waited months to release the footage and then their advertisement in the UK papers, that wasn't to help animals it was to discredit the dairy industry, Yip Old Hans needs to go back to where he came from and sort out that countries animal welfare............. OH dear didn't I say don't get me started on SAFE.

take a look at st hans country the nederlands if im not mistaken.
a] no hunting virtually
b]dope cafe,s
c]bikies warring with rpg,s in the streets

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Yes you are right, all the rules in the world mean nothing if they aren't enforced, don't even get me started on SAFE, animal rights my arse

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i agree i couldnt leave a suffering animal for 5 minutes let alone 5 months i wonder if the animals are secondary to him and his ilk ??
forcing thier rose tinted vision of the world on the rest of us is more his bent and i bet he relishes the persecuted martyr position he,s in.
nothing recruits like minded types with thier money than to see one of thier own doing something half right and lambasted for it.
lets be honest there are farming practises that belong in the past that still go on but unless we are all prepared to pay more and ignore the cheaper imported pork and not buy battery eggs there fore removing the price advantage of these farming practises they will persist.
anyway sorry eebees for getting off the point but the half truth of these wankers arguements is what gets them heard on issues like this[dog matters] which they have no clue or experience of.

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Originally Posted by gsp follower

leave all animals free wild and with a unfettered lack of control on them.

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It was the keeping of animals to sustain life way back in the mists of time that brought mankind to where he is today...if the greenie wombles had their way they would plummet civilisation back to the neolithic period...:(

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Originally Posted by EeeBees

It was the keeping of animals to sustain life way back in the mists of time that brought mankind to where he is today...if the greenie wombles had their way they would plummet civilisation back to the neolithic period...:(

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Yep and to stay alive we will need to eat animals, no vegetarians then....it was just a word for bad hunter:thumbsup:

Well, this escalated. :D

I really hope we can dock ears soon. Multi purpose reasons, every time I'm out the poor buggers ears are opened up and they bleed everywhere.....that and hopefully docking them will cure the deafness...,

Submission emailed...

Due by tomorrow folks. Get them in now

Done.

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Originally Posted by Wirehunt

I really hope we can dock ears soon. Multi purpose reasons, every time I'm out the poor buggers ears are opened up and they bleed everywhere.....that and hopefully docking them will cure the deafness...,

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Looking forward to one of your posts having an ounce in background in them. Troll.

Do you not read English? King troll.

IN fact lets go a little deeper into this....
So because someone has a different opinion to you Ruff you start calling them trolls etc. Are you now the god of the dog world? I missed the memo.
Tell me again how much work you do with your dogs?

:popcorn:
Didnt work grrr technologu

Save it for someone that will fall for your bait.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...42/755/493.jpg

what the hell...the president of the NZKC has indicated his lack of support to the submission from the NZCDB but has nodded at the continued use of prong and/or pinch collars...this is after he gave assurances to the NZCDB he would...

In the latest Dog World, the president writes in his address...quote...to me...the case around dew claw removal is imminently more winnable as the arguments around science, best practice and protecting the public stack up better because there are genuine risks around children being injured from dew claws if dogs jump on them and dew claws are not removed and there is low impact on puppies if dew claws are removed in the first 2.-4 days after birth ...unquote...

This is not about child welfare, it is about canine welfare...I have witnessed dogs such as depicted in this foto...

Attachment 50559

There should be a vote of no confidence...

I read that too in the NZKC mag too EBs.

Looks like you can kiss docking goodbye

I have little will to breed puppies if they cannot be docked which has been their historic right for centuries...

You have an alibi. The bobtail gene :)

That poofter that heads the NZKC has made some pretty rash statements, and is known for knee-jerk reactionary policy changes but this takes the cake. None of his statement had any base in reality, no mention of working dogs. Dew claws scratching kids? WTF

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Originally Posted by EeeBees

I have little will to breed puppies if they cannot be docked which has been their historic right for centuries...

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pretty much our view too.
we moved away from the NZKC and have cut our cocker breeding to the back burner for a few years now.
it was a stab in the back for all working docked breeds and a dangerous situation for all hunting now that it appears the nzkc has bowed to the vets and spca.
sad the NZGTA has not gone into this against the NZKC and threaten legal action on behalf of both the spaniel and versatile breeds.
but as many know they are too busy surviving as it is.

But there have been plenty of well thought out submissions, so we can but hope. After all MPI is happy for lambs to be banded or docked with a hot iron by any person as long as they are under 6 months of age. To ban pup tail banding prior to 4 days of age equals a gross inconsistency in MPI regulations.
And I believe the NZKC will lose more members, they should be supporting ALL their membership. I'm disgusted really.

Yep after reading that knobs submission I can't help but feel does every gundog owner feel shat on right now? Because they should. Shat on by the very registry organisation that is supposed to behave in our best interests.

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Originally Posted by Pointer

You have an alibi. The bobtail gene :)

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Yes, @Pointer, you are right...however, there will be those who will have not fully informed themselves on the dangers of repeated generations of those dogs exhibiting the bobtail gene...there is the issue of absorption of feti...NO ONE has been able to advise me on the outcome for bitches in regard to the health of the endometrium as a result of repeated absorptions...there is also the issue of gross deformities in the neonates i.e spina bifida just as those in the Manx cat...it is not an easy fix...there will be those who will need to do some serious homework...members of the French club with whom I have spoken to on this issue view it with due gravity...

I don't care about the science, I'm saying you can continue docking and not tell anyone :)

:D:D

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Originally Posted by Pointer

I don't care about the science, I'm saying you can continue docking and not tell anyone :)

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But someone might tell tails and then Eeebees might get something docked from her wages.

5k a pup fine with a conviction proven by a simple x ray . all mpi and the spca wanted was more powers for instant fines.

It's just ridiculous. Also $300 instant fine for any breach of regs. So if your dog panting in car because it's just been for a run, you just might end up coughing up $300.

A conviction? really?

Not a conviction as such, but proposed $300 instant fines for any breach of regs.

for the others including cooking a cray alive, court case and fines.

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Originally Posted by kawhia

for the others including cooking a cray alive, court case and fines.

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or shooting seals with shotguns ooh they were rugby players;)

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This is not about child welfare, it is about canine welfare...I have witnessed dogs such as depicted in this foto...

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kennel clubs for quite a while now

some would say canine welfare has never been the guiding light of kennel clubs for quite a while now.
they are at least a bussiness or at the very least subject to the business of dog selling.

Sadly yes. Their main income is from dog showing, so they are essentially funded by the very people ruining dog breeds. It's a shame they could not simply just be a user funded registry, nothing more

There main source of income is a registry, and the Fees tacked on show entry's, dog agility (which is the biggest) or gundog trials.
Trials and dog shows have been in decline for many years hence the price increases in registrations and talk of them registering mongrels.
Nzkc grew into a money sucking monster years ago, they are fighting to keep the income coming in from a declining membership and losing even more support now from this bullshit.

I believe the time is not too far away when a totally new system could come into play. The NZGTA is under attack from some seemingly selfish individuals and may struggle to weather the storm. They certainly require our support. While I do not see it happening, in my perfect world we would have a working gundog registry established with no connection to any other disciplines which may well allow some breeds, almost lost to the hunting world, to return to the field with competency.

Hence why we had the chance to go with the JGHV system and took it.

There is no reason the NZGTA could not function without paying NZKC or bowing down to them, plenty of computer software that can store pedigrees and the rules are already in place for all trials and the relationship with the English trials world is pretty solid for support.
The only way NZGTA can survive is to cease and start again, amazing how 3 people and a lawyer can destroy a 100 years worth.