Thread: too close matings

just read an english setter litter whelped in oz last year, half sisiter to half brother on the dams side.
now got me thinking how accepted is this close in the pointer/setter world. been reading through a few pointer books and it is was quite the done thing for them too.
'pointer' may know if the pratice was followed down under ?

A study of any sucessful long term breeding plan in pointers and setters worldwide contains degrees of inbreeding. I think how much is a cultural thing. The Aussie pointer and setter folk don't think twice to put father to daughter, as that's what the most successful have done there. Have a look at their guru, Jack Pontins' pedigrees in the final days of his Marnissa kennel. It gets pretty biblical. Hence, successive generations of breeders over there take the same approach. I can think of at least four working pointer breeders that have bred that close, with coefficients of around 25% is almost accepted as the norm.

Here in NZ our most successful pointer and setter kennels have also used inbreeding to a degree, but my observation is that we are much more moderate. Mortensen 'pre-woody' was quite intensive, mainly because the stock he imported was quite tightly bred. The Kilsheelan reds historically have been linebred also. As for the pointer in NZ sadly it is the opposite, we kept breeding out when we should have capitalized on some great dogs we had here. Hence the variation in the breed to date.

Such a strange word 'hence'

So is 'therefore', or 'and so'. Way to many characters for a one thumb phone typist!

Originally Posted by Pointer

A study of any sucessful long term breeding plan in pointers and setters worldwide contains degrees of inbreeding. I think how much is a cultural thing. The Aussie pointer and setter folk don't think twice to put father to daughter, as that's what the most successful have done there. Have a look at their guru, Jack Pontins' pedigrees in the final days of his Marnissa kennel. It gets pretty biblical. Hence, successive generations of breeders over there take the same approach. I can think of at least four working pointer breeders that have bred that close, with coefficients of around 25% is almost accepted as the norm.

Here in NZ our most successful pointer and setter kennels have also used inbreeding to a degree, but my observation is that we are much more moderate. Mortensen 'pre-woody' was quite intensive, mainly because the stock he imported was quite tightly bred. The Kilsheelan reds historically have been linebred also. As for the pointer in NZ sadly it is the opposite, we kept breeding out when we should have capitalized on some great dogs we had here. Hence the variation in the breed to date.

i think 'woody' featured very strongly in the mating, it was frank tommys breeding that was the double up.
i have requested the chances of doing such a mating through our breed warden with my own breed hence the questions.

Good on you, I think the sole reason it doesn't happen more here is that breeders are too afraid of what others think, with all the emotional attachment to the word 'inbreeding'. With the knowledge of the breed wardens behind you and a willingness to select ruthlessly on the pups, as well as the necessary selection by way of the german testing system, it can't be a bad thing at all. I hope they give you the thumbs up! Well done

Sorry guys but I just couldn't resist the urge

My pointer is in bread. Ha ha ha ha. I don't think I have ever taken the piss in the dog section before.

what is acceptable father to grandaughter mother to grandson??.
i imagine it possible was quite wide spread untill heriditary faults surfaced or the was human moral compass was turned it its direction.
a good line is a good line in every endeavor and how close to pure you keep that line or want to should be with the functions of health workability temperment at the fore.
i think of inbreeding as the shoring up of faults in to closely breed dogs or just breeding suddenly popular dog breeds fore the money and no thought to heriditary faults . .
a separete thing to line breeding but oft confused into the one lump of line breeding by the ignorant or those thinking they are on the morally superior high ground .

Originally Posted by Rushy

Sorry guys but I just couldn't resist the urge
Attachment 57087
My pointer is in bread. Ha ha ha ha. I don't think I have ever taken the piss in the dog section before.

Looks like an in bread Great White Pointer to me @Rushy

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by gsp follower

what is acceptable father to grandaughter mother to grandson.

Sounds like just another Saturday night in Dannevegas.

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by P38

Sounds like just another Saturday night in Dannevegas.

Cheers
Pete

Yes and we all know that has resulted in a dominant short gene.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

what is acceptable father to grandaughter mother to grandson??.
i imagine it possible was quite wide spread untill heriditary faults surfaced or the was human moral compass was turned it its direction.
a good line is a good line in every endeavor and how close to pure you keep that line or want to should be with the functions of health workability temperment at the fore.
i think of inbreeding as the shoring up of faults in to closely breed dogs or just breeding suddenly popular dog breeds fore the money and no thought to heriditary faults . .
a separete thing to line breeding but oft confused into the one lump of line breeding by the ignorant or those thinking they are on the morally superior high ground .

grandparent to any of his/her offspring is pretty much accepted and a COI of 12.5 %
half siblings to each other is the same 12.5%
6.25% or less is the ideal in a good population breed like labradors.....25% and higher is deemed to be banjo territory.
the second part of ya post mirrors pointers comments about breeders not doing it.

I really think this is something only South Islanders can answer from the Island where Mum is Dads sister lol

Originally Posted by P38

Sounds like just another Saturday night in Dannevegas.

Cheers
Pete

Thats gonna change this weekend with heaps of fresh blood and Toby's Cock n balls over seeing all

acceptable inbreeding depends on the genetic quality of the stock.some bloodlines will blossom on it, for others its a disaster.it is a powerful tool to find out what is lurking in the bloodlines.robert wehle and his Elhew pointers are an excellent example of close breeding,his books- wing and shot and snakefoot are excellent reading on the subject. however he was an intelligent and exceptional man,so this pathway is not for your typical breeder.line breeding is just a watered down version of inbreeding.