Thread: Versatile hunting dog test

Originally Posted by el borracho

Even with all the best intentions Ruff some times we must appreciate perfection is mostly a dream and rarely a reality

I get that... my point is this... the test is designed to test hunting dogs, yet few hunting dogs do the tests... we, meaning people who are obessed with gundogs, need to open our minds a little more and ensure what we are doing is relevant to hunters with dogs... when the tests/trials etc become the end we become a group of myopic hobbyists... what we do needs to produce better dogs, reliable breeding programs and something of relevance to hunters... while we only do more to futher the "game" we play it constitutes nothing more than our own game and as such has little relevance to anyone else.

Trials are a breeding tool...funny how trials can be breeding tools but exemplary work by the rough shooters dog is what exactly...no measure of the dogs prey drive or tenacity, endeavour, intent...what of those on chukar in the South Island high country where their runs are not in increments of 15 minutes but hours?

Originally Posted by EeeBees

Trials are a breeding tool...funny how trials can be breeding tools but exemplary work by the rough shooters dog is what exactly...no measure of the dogs prey drive or tenacity, endeavour, intent...what of those on chukar in the South Island high country where their runs are not in increments of 15 minutes but hours?

No where did I say they were the only breeding tool... in fact my point is/was they are not a very efficient breeding tools anymore... even though that is/was their primary purpose.

You can choose to be part of a solution or be part of the problem if you wish!

the dogs at the trials are peer reviewed via performances over time -possibly as are the handlers to some degree .People do make decisions from these trials to do matings based on performances ,linage , letters in that linage . I cannot see how you dont see the club trial scene as a lesser tool than maybe it once was ,although smaller numbers still same practices one thinks ??? The alternative practice that is currently better is ?

Spending an entire day hunting over the dogs

one day only and that's your decision made ? I feel several days or several trials especially the natural game trials would give a good example of a dogs work ability .Also with the trials all the dogs are there you have a menu of animals available to see and dont have to go find them . Some days in the field would be great if you knew that a particular dog was good other wise you might chase you tail all over town looking for that special animal- me thinks.There are certainly many dogs out there worthy to be breed with that arnt trialed or seen by most but they are defiantly there -as are diamonds if you can find them !

Originally Posted by el borracho

one day only and that's your decision made ? I feel several days or several trials especially the natural game trials would give a good example of a dogs work ability .Also with the trials all the dogs are there you have a menu of animals available to see and dont have to go find them . Some days in the field would be great if you knew that a particular dog was good other wise you might chase you tail all over town looking for that special animal- me thinks.There are certainly many dogs out there worthy to be breed with that arnt trialed or seen by most but they are defiantly there -as are diamonds if you can find them !

Ummm not being cute, but you read Leon's book aye?

several days trialling would be what, an hour running, maybe two at most in total? I'm with Uplander

its about the quality of the work and not fitness , any well put together dog can run well for a days shooting. My point was also at club trials you have dogs to see and unless you have an intimate knowledge of someone else's dogs that little diamond will to hard to find

Originally Posted by el borracho

its about the quality of the work and not fitness , any well put together dog can run well for a days shooting. My point was also at club trials you have dogs to see and unless you have an intimate knowledge of someone else's dogs that little diamond will to hard to find

In the gem world I cannot tell a diamond from CS... In the dog world one will stand out... I don;t believe the many can use trials as a benchmark anymore... not because of their dogs, but because of the quality of their eye... we are losing real old fashioned dogmanship... it existed... once... People like Robin, Bob, Noel, Leon, are more could watch a dog run, stack it against one of their and know in 5 minutes if it was a candidate, it didn;t need a day in the field or twenty minutes on a trial field.. sure that would eventually seal if it was a pretender or not, but it should not be, never would be and can;t be the criteria.

We are getting way to caught up in things that don;t really matter... people trying to sell us on dogs that have no crieteria to back them up... people who lambast the trial and claim watching their dog run all day is the answer, people who claim the dog in the field is of no use unless stacked against another of known quantity... yeah sure, i have bought into this bullshit too... ultimately these rhetoric are more about what someone wants to sell you than what is a real dog for the real world... we're losing that slowly as the game becomes more important than the dog... the DOG IS THE IMPORTANT THING. Great dogs can magically appear out of no where, but it seems the day of the line that consistently produces great dogs is fading... we had Jim with the Bally black Spaniels.... Leon with the Wingfield's now when we look to great kennels and outstanding dogs, to be fair, little is left... Kilsheelan is the kennel left with outstanding results, few duds, little in the way of genetic issues... and throughout this time we have had everything mentioned here, and still our dogs deteriorate...

Wouldn;t it be great if a few more had the balls to say out loud what I think, if we could turn this tide, or maybe we will just pander to bukllshit games played by people who are playing bullshit games and continue to watch our gundog lines diminish into nothing as the trend clearly shows tey are...

So, while you all want to call me a wanker... lets think about what YOU are doing ti improve things, what you have done to change the trend, if you will be the next Leon or Jim or if you just want to use bullshit to bluster to the public the crap you are doing with dogs and make it sound like you are getting it right... when really you are breeding more couch doolies that have a nose... The NZ hunting fraternity deserves better and if you are not prepared to do the hard yards to provide it, stop bullshitting everyone and get a new hobby.

Not aimed at anyone in particular... so don;t get all personal... but you can get enthusiastic about getting it right! People say I hate to be wrong, in this case. I'D LOVE TO BE!!!!

Originally Posted by Ruff

In the gem world I cannot tell a diamond from CS... In the dog world one will stand out... I don;t believe the many can use trials as a benchmark anymore... not because of their dogs, but because of the quality of their eye... we are losing real old fashioned dogmanship... it existed... once... People like Robin, Bob, Noel, Leon, are more could watch a dog run, stack it against one of their and know in 5 minutes if it was a candidate, it didn;t need a day in the field or twenty minutes on a trial field.. sure that would eventually seal if it was a pretender or not, but it should not be, never would be and can;t be the criteria.

We are getting way to caught up in things that don;t really matter... people trying to sell us on dogs that have no crieteria to back them up... people who lambast the trial and claim watching their dog run all day is the answer, people who claim the dog in the field is of no use unless stacked against another of known quantity... yeah sure, i have bought into this bullshit too... ultimately these rhetoric are more about what someone wants to sell you than what is a real dog for the real world... we're losing that slowly as the game becomes more important than the dog... the DOG IS THE IMPORTANT THING. Great dogs can magically appear out of no where, but it seems the day of the line that consistently produces great dogs is fading... we had Jim with the Bally black Spaniels.... Leon with the Wingfield's now when we look to great kennels and outstanding dogs, to be fair, little is left... Kilsheelan is the kennel left with outstanding results, few duds, little in the way of genetic issues... and throughout this time we have had everything mentioned here, and still our dogs deteriorate...

Wouldn;t it be great if a few more had the balls to say out loud what I think, if we could turn this tide, or maybe we will just pander to bukllshit games played by people who are playing bullshit games and continue to watch our gundog lines diminish into nothing as the trend clearly shows tey are...

So, while you all want to call me a wanker... lets think about what YOU are doing ti improve things, what you have done to change the trend, if you will be the next Leon or Jim or if you just want to use bullshit to bluster to the public the crap you are doing with dogs and make it sound like you are getting it right... when really you are breeding more couch doolies that have a nose... The NZ hunting fraternity deserves better and if you are not prepared to do the hard yards to provide it, stop bullshitting everyone and get a new hobby.

Not aimed at anyone in particular... so don;t get all personal... but you can get enthusiastic about getting it right! People say I hate to be wrong, in this case. I'D LOVE TO BE!!!!

hehehe I always love your replies and sentiments Ruff ! The enthusiasm and passion you have is to be admired .Times are a changing for the hunt to some degree - how often do you hear its getting harder to find good spots as either council or farmers have changed the ability to have easy access .Partially due to these certain hardships we probably have less people breeding gun dogs -there are still alot but certain gene pools are limited and the consequence of time , accesses and what ever the fuc else is changing the face of country sports to some degree .Some have a greater knowledge than others of breeding and have possibly greater accesses to good dogs because they know them and have seen them .If you don't know or see these little diamonds you'll never breed to them hence why I like the trial scene as there are a pool of animals to readily look at .Whilst one must recognize there are many dogs out there to potentially breed to its just to find them if you don't know them . How many great kennels has NZ actually had in each of the specialty areas that were readily available to the NZ public to consider -seems few .We can only work with what we have and move forward in the most positive manner available to each individual and even then opinion will vary on what is average good or great .Its great to be able to have these conversations !!!

No one mentioned fitness?

Originally Posted by Pointer

No one mentioned fitness?

No one has found a way to breed fitness yet

I read you wrong -still my point is still the same - you dont have to hunt a whole day to see the quality of a working dog and they're there to see on mass -all 1-2-3-4 of them lol !If you have a potential dog you know is good a day out would be better for the obvious reasons of course but a little harder to find that dog one thinks !

True, I didn't mean just any dog. Over the last few years I have made a point of inviting people to my place with dogs of a known quality (ie. some were/are trials winners) to see them hunt. I feel it is a better way to get a feel for a dog than any trial. Seeing a dog in action in a variety of environments, on various game species I have found speaks more about a dog than any titles or ribbons