I think in most clubs the executive have the power to refuse membership if feel itQuote:
Originally Posted by upnorth uplander
would detrimental to club or members.
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I think in most clubs the executive have the power to refuse membership if feel itQuote:
Originally Posted by upnorth uplander
would detrimental to club or members.
Is that you Gail
Is what Ruff speaks about a matter of fact or not concerning the documentation ? Yes , concerning clubs they are by far the best way to progress most handlers confidence and dogs ability by assessing where they are at compared to other dogs and by the breed standards expectation . The trials are certainly a place of honesty and not to be taken as any sort of negative in my opinion - failure to to well just means you understand you have more work to do in the areas you haven't progressed well in .I myself have to work on areas of my very capable dog to bring on more consistency .Through a days hunt one will encounter both good and bad but 10-20 min performance also shows the faults readily .
I don't believe Ruff's comments are trying to slander the sport or clubs -he is asking the questions and giving his opinion and if others have a contrary view best give it in response to his to make the things he speaks about more clear to either him or others if what is said is incorrect .
The other side of the coin is we work with what we have and sometimes it isnt perfect for various reason but that doesn't mean change should not be striven for if it something better can be introduced --remember we are not professionals running clubs day in day out but passionate people trying to better our breeds abilities and all have fun whilst doing so
;)
Yes, Zharn. are you still up North or back in AuckQuote:
Originally Posted by upnorth uplander
The most sense you've made in months El B!Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
Im in Gulf HarbourQuote:
Originally Posted by Jagdhundegsps
hahahah --:yarr:Ive taken my pills and become a bore , give me time and ill go mad again ........... Im going to send you an alarm clock down so you wake up and come with your very nice partner to the trials !!lol
The fact is, he is not a member of the Assn and has no right to ask such questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
The slander is aimed at myself.
Club matters and test regulations are for members and for AGM, they are not for discussion on an internet forum.
Gail and myself have travelled overseas on more than one occassion to watch various tests and to check that what VHDTA has set up is satisfactory for NZ.
The assn is not a member of Jagdgebrauchshundverband e.V.
Agreed club matters are club matters and not for a forum to bandy around and general business is best kept in an AGM format-the rules and regs and tests are not confidential subject matters one thinks ? I cannot see why parties interested cant pre-read requirements if posted on a club web site, I haven't had a look to see if they are but then again I personally have no need in this particular area of the versatile tests.
The important thing is that someone is running them .I say this -a few do a shit load of work and whilst some may not like it that work should never be bad mouthed unless you yourself are willing to take over the plough and commit to doing it your self -its for the pure love of the sport and breed that the doers are doing and the rest of us can actually attend anything at all !!:thumbsup:better to give thanks to them for their efforts
Thank you! :)
Anyone with a Versatile hunting dog (HPR) who is interested in the tests or testing their dog can contact me on my email which is clear on the website and I can send them info they need. Too big to put on general section. Not sending out for someone who just wants to tear them apart on internet though.
Thank you Brian for attempting to bring the rhetoric out... you have succeeded and I will help decipher it for you and everyone... and here is why...Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
I am about better dogs for hunters. YES, REAL HUNTERS, Hunters that need solid working bred dogs who have breeders concerned with the very reproduction of inherit qualities which makes training a dog for a specific purpose an easier thing to do than it would be than if you just started with "any old pooch". Any old pooch includes gundog breeds too far removed from real work to be considered working dogs because they have been compromised for other purposes... hunting dogs are dogs bred to hunt... NOTHING ELSE... yes, you can dual or triple any dog, but no one can make a sensible argument that there can be not some form of compromise in this.
GSP has said she will send someone "Any information they need".. is that by what she thinks they need or will she send all of the information... if all of the information was requested by an interested party would it be forthcoming? My information is that even people within the assn cannot get all of the information... there are some documents she believes ONLY she should have... no one else.
Here's the rub... I am a fan of the concept of the NZVHDTA i think it has massive potential to help NZ Hunters procure better dogs... but not while it is held to ransom for the purposes of specific breeders and people running the assn as their hobby. The dogs are meant to be the hobby, the assn an offshoot of that... this is not the case where running the assn is the focus and keeping a couple of dogs the justification. The assn should not be held to ransom, it's members kept devoid of the information, people who could advance the cause (Capable of running the advanced tests but shunned) are kept at arms length to ensure the person holding it to ransom can continue to do so.
It seems we hunters have to put store in the results/findings of this assn, yet two ladies in this very thread who want to poohoo what I say are open to the question... Have either of you ever shot a deer over an indicating a dog? Pre-empting the irrelevant nature of this question in the response i will offer right now it is very relevant... hunters will never take the opinion of someone who doesn't do what they require of a dog. The assn stands to be the best thing ever... if these people would allow real hunters with real dogs to be involved at the coalface... they don't and won't it seems!
Time for the truth GSP... are you in a position that YOU believe cannot be voted on as conveyor? If a group of people who see real merit in the goals and objectives of the assn, if run properly, come in and vote you out? Can people get involved and take this forward for the betterment, even if that means you must step aside, or is it a reality that they cannot remove you even if they believe it is for the betterment of hunters, hunting dogs and the assn? I'm picking you won;t even answer these questions because we do know the answers don't we? You do tell people, as I understand, that your position is cast in stone, cannot and will never be voted on... is this correct?
I will also state that the inference that this is a personal vendetta between two people is absolute bullshit and a smokescreen. I have never met GSP in person and I do not want to... I have no personal gripe with her other than I see this potentially wonderful concept being bastardised for personal objective when it should stand for better dogs. I have never wavered for standing for better dogs. It seems you have made a directive over my potential membership and attendance but I ask... HAS ANYONE ELSE BEEN CONSULTED IN THIS????? What if people want someone of my experience involved... is your word still the last word... is this another indication of how you run this group????
Maybe GSP can tell us why NONE of the leading handlers of versatiles, with the exception of Jake, who has done a wonderful job with his breed, will have anything to do with the assn, even though they anecdotally tell me they all believe in the concept implicitly but won;t get involved while "certain people" are involved.
Do not try and make this what it is not. I have no reason to put scorn or derision on anyone, especially people I have never met, unless I believe their personal agenda is rising above what is really a viable option for improving NZ Gundogs. Hunters just want good dogs... the test can give a sighter to that... currently they absolutely do not... the moves to make it possible are stopped by, as far as i can ascertain, one person who, at best, might have shot a couple of quail over a versatile dog.... The ones pulling the strings don;t duckshoot over their dogs, don;t shoot deer over their dogs, don;t ever go anywhere they encounter a pig to be tamed, have no control on their dogs around rabbits... and yet, when people who require these qualities in a dog front up they are told to piss off as being disruptive.
NOTICE: A versatile dog is a versatile dog... the tests should reflect this, the people running the tests should have experience in all of the endeavors required of a versatile dog..... if they are to judge them and they should support advancement within the assn to ensure hunters are getting what they want... not just close down the parameters so the tests become an end goal and have no relevance to hunters.
I am sorry if the HOBBY you have chosen is at odds with the reality of real gundogs... you chose that I didn't... I'm just calling you on it.
I have no personal agenda with you or any breeder lurking in therse halls.... not so long as they stand for better dogs, can demonstrate better dogs, are involved with better dogs. otherwise how on earth are they judgeing dogs... what do you girls have to show us at a demonstration with your dogs.... seriously... or is this all just bullshit????
After reading this thread there are 2 things I wouldn't do.
1) Ever join a gun dog club of any description. I already have enough angst in my life.
2) Cross the street to piss on Ruff if he was on fire :D
Why would anyone think wanting better testing for better gundogs was a bad thing? and secondly, under any circumstance, please don;t piss on me...b :ORLY:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
You sleeping with one of them or are ya just thick? Your're probably one of those that thinks if you get a "gundog" that is a "gundog" breed it will be a gundog... slowly but surely we can educate the majority to understand this is not the case... there is still a minority who cannot grasp this... sorry!
I've slept with the odd bitch in my time...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
But I will tell you something for free, people who write letters that contain words that are underlined or in bold are often borderline personalities or complete fruitcakes.
I agree, it's why I don;t underline anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
WHY NOT? :D
Christ! I'm surrounded by them. :)
:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
I always like your honesty and straight forward no nonsense posts Ruff .I have no idea of the politics of clubs but I do know without one of these members we probably wouldn't have a functioning Auckland Regions GSP club -it is part time by enthusiasts and even then its few small few of those that carry the load .There is little to stop an enthusiastic few setting up their own club up with more advanced teaching -problem , same thing youll find at many clubs lethargy toward commitment and then failure ..................
To be fair I have always had and still do have a lot of respect for Gail and what she does for her breed... I've never said a word against her or anything she has bred, for whatever reason she chose to take a shot at me... Que Sera Sera :omg:Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
shes a top lady to be sure ! lets face it we all have opinions and they at times cause offense to someone with onions that differ -its just keeping it all in perspective and remember some skin cats differently or more slowly than another --some like me often use the bulldozer method:P
Well here is something for all the club types to think about. I for one won't bother with any of them unless someone finally grows a brain and recognises crossbreeds in this country.
You can do blah blah blah, but you don't get recognized, or more to the point, the dog doesn't get recognized if it's a crossbreed.
What the fuck is up with that?
Oh right, hang on. Dog clubs. Nutter clubs. Is there a difference? Maybe a rephrase is needed, nutter dog club members.
I understand your point but the argument is that trials and tests are primarily there to identify the best breeding stock... as a second cross from crossbreeds doesn;t usually breed true it kind of defeats the purpose. Sadly though this brings in another argument... do our current trials and tests find the best breeding stock... in most cases it doesn't so they might as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
Funny thing to say Ruff, a mate just took a third or maybe fourth gen pup away the other day and is stoked with it already, and it hasn't even been on the hill yet, he's already booked more when they arrive :D
you can run a cross breed just not at a champ trial - go along for a look Wirehunt - I dont know where in the south the clubs are but theyre there and if like anything like our clubs"most" are very friendly
you can run a cross breed just not at a champ trial - go along for a look Wirehunt - I dont know where in the south the clubs are but they're there and if like anything like our clubs"most" are very friendly.As far as breeding goes -around the clubs has to be better than the her say breeding of dogs that are not peer access me thinks Ruff but that's just my thoughts .Pointers and Setters -Robynn does a great job , English Setters have always been good but we are now few but growing agian ..by one new bitch in this month -there is a dog in from UK from a well known trialist and hunter Damian Gortaub ..but where is it ? Pointers ,I dont know but there is a member here importing a new one also,Pointer may be able to elaborate more on Pointer breeding .GSPs Ive seen plenty work well at Pigeon trials but few venture to live game -in saying that the ones Ive seen have hunted well .Wirehairs ,no idea but need an experienced rider to get the best lol
Springers , cockers and labs type dogs -no idea at at all and have not watched to many do their thing -talking with Bob the other day he said there was some good dogs around -that wwas just after he sent me packing in my trial ..I cooked him breakfast gave him lunch ..what more can a man do LOL
I've got a mate who has got into spaniel trials over the last 2 years. He has really taken to it and is doing quite well. He finds it a good social activity and he has made some new friends.
Although his dogs in the past have always been lovely and did what they were bred for, they were always deer chasers and the discipline was rather second to the close relationship he has had with them.
But now, the transformation is amazing.
This latest trial dog is the most obedient and well trained gun dog I have ever seen. The dog is a pleasure to hunt with, and now its my dog that looks a bit naughty :)
So big ups for the trials. My friend has gained a new interest, his dog is amazing, its great to hunt with and he has set a new bench mark for me to aspire to.
Couldn't possibly speak on pointer breeding in NZ as there are more qualified to do so. There is, however at least one working litter in the pipeline from Rotorua this year, and two confirmed working imports this year, with talk of another two later this year or nextQuote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
Great stuff Thar !!! and so true .This morning I spoke with a GSP owner who was working his dog . He said he had been to a couple of shows and a trial but didnt like the fact you couldn't have your dog of a lead so flagged the lot . By the end of the conversation he was a new man as I had sprinkled fairy trial dust all over him and he had a new sense of what he could achieve if he got a little more involved and spoke to others that work on the finer point of manners and hunting prowess -I hope to see him again at a trial . I think you can only take positives away from a trial even if your dog ran like a corgy .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Look guys, I know it might not appear that way but here's the rub... for the very reasons outlined I AM A FAN OF TRIALS.... I AM A HUGE FAN OF THE CONCEPT OF THE VERSATILE TESTS!
I also take a shot at NO INNOCENT PARTY... I SHOOT BACK... TAKE A SWING... I'LL BRING A COMBO BACK. I don;t Target ANYONE... EVER, NEVER HAVE!
Live game trials have advanced NZ gundog handling massively, we have gone from some of the very worst handlers in the world to some of the not so worst handlers in the world in a very short space in time. The versatile tests are doing NOTHING but should be doing something... the only thing standing between them and success is the quality of people who put value in them, the quality of the people who participate in them. Maybe I'm wrong, but my view is that certain people would rather NOT have knowledgeable people involved because it render them redundant... call it a pissing contest if you must, but it's not. I don;t have a dog in the fight... I have no versatile, I run springers, i run them in live game when I can, when I'm not i shoot game over them....
BUT as a trainer i get calls constantly from folks... if the NZVHDTA stood for more I could recommend their participation... instead of viewing me as a threat I could be viewed as the very best recruitment tool they EVER had... but... my thoughts differ from hers... now I cannot be a member, I cannot attend a test... why? Cause she said so... oh yeah and some waffle about rules... it's all clear... this is her thing, she believes she has the right to ban me... she does. I couldn't give a shit... i didn't want to go anyway... but HUNTERS can do better... She is the issue standing between what the assn can do for HUNTERS and what it can do for her... we'll leave it be. Gail... I'll leave you out of it and give you your one shot... I don;t take shots... i respond to them, you took yours... take another and I might not play so nicely... I stand for nothing other than better dogs for NZ hunters. I have NOTHING to sell, no crusade, other than better dogs.... help yourself if you think you have the higher ground. I will outline and defend my position with all of my INTEGRITY of which I have a lot and will stand by. I am here to discuss, argue and defend anything I say. I run from nothing and have nothing to hide. people know who i am, I will front up with a dog to show what i believe is good dog work and I hide behind no nom-de-plume...
Come get me... or maybe we can all just be sensible and do more for the dogs and less for our egos.
Ye gods, is this still going on...
The ruff doth protest too much, methinks :P
I don;t think so... what the f do you stand for???... anything but online shit stirring???... I stand for better dogs. end of story... get it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Ok, smart arse, what do you think my agenda is???... I'll tell you if you've been to slow to work it out by now, but if you want to keep prodding, I 'll prod back... what's your problem, what bit didn't you understand?????
Have YOU got a dog that meets any of this criteria or are you just shit stirring?
Whatsa problem Ruff :D getting a bit tense there ?
Just wondering why you feel the need to paint yourself as the Virgin Mary of the NZ dog world. You keep repeating that you stand for better dogs in just about every second post, so I do get it, in fact, I think just about everyone gets it Ruff...
This thread has moved on, you seem to be the one insisting on pulling it back into the mud. You've made your position crystal clear, what it is you want, should we all gather for a public forum lynching, or would you like some other form of validation ?
Meh
I didn;t say no one at trials was breeding good dogs... i said the trials themselves were no longer much of a breeding tool. By that I mean that is meant to be their intended purpose... but it doesn;t really fill that function anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
As for Bob, you could try wine vouchers.. but realistically... only good work wins him over. :)
yes!Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
OK to p-ut it context i would rather spend time discussing improving dogs.. not politics... I think the discussion could be focused on how to get more hunters with dogs involved... sadly, instead of discussing constructive stuff anything that threatens some folks just draws more personal attacks and bullshit.
Even with all the best intentions Ruff some times we must appreciate perfection is mostly a dream and rarely a reality :disapointed:
I get that... my point is this... the test is designed to test hunting dogs, yet few hunting dogs do the tests... we, meaning people who are obessed with gundogs, need to open our minds a little more and ensure what we are doing is relevant to hunters with dogs... when the tests/trials etc become the end we become a group of myopic hobbyists... what we do needs to produce better dogs, reliable breeding programs and something of relevance to hunters... while we only do more to futher the "game" we play it constitutes nothing more than our own game and as such has little relevance to anyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by el borracho
Trials are a breeding tool...funny how trials can be breeding tools but exemplary work by the rough shooters dog is what exactly...no measure of the dogs prey drive or tenacity, endeavour, intent...what of those on chukar in the South Island high country where their runs are not in increments of 15 minutes but hours?
No where did I say they were the only breeding tool... in fact my point is/was they are not a very efficient breeding tools anymore... even though that is/was their primary purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by EeeBees
You can choose to be part of a solution or be part of the problem if you wish!