Thread: Very interesting food for thought.

https://dignblog.wordpress.com/2016/...ox-prevent-it/

It is little about the puppies...but much about nutrition for the bitch pre-oestrum, in whelp and nursing...

Originally Posted by EeeBees

It is little about the puppies...but much about nutrition for the bitch pre-oestrum, in whelp and nursing...

Apparently not.

Originally Posted by EeeBees

It is little about the puppies...but much about nutrition for the bitch pre-oestrum, in whelp and nursing...

I suggest reading again with your blinkers off. People have been told all manner of crap regarding HD over the years, much of which has been disproved. In 50 years of testing using X-Ray to diagnose HD no improvement has been made. NONE! HD parents still produce non HD pups, Non HD parants still produce HD pups. NO ONE HAS A HANDLE ON IT. Penn Hip looks to be a more reasoned way forward, but we don't even know about that yet. The answer is, no one can tell you the cause, no one can predict the occurrence, No one can tell you it's genetic, environmental, or diet... but digesting the information with an open mind might lead us to an answer... Meanwhile, anyone trying to sound knowledgeable about HD is really just blowing bullshit because no one knows the reality!

Originally Posted by Ruff

I suggest reading again with your blinkers off.

blinkers...mmmmm, ok whatever...

in whelping pups i have used a frame over which i stretch a double sided woolsack. it keeps the pups dry and warm.they are unlikely to get crushed.they get a good grip when nursing and they form a natural bundle in the middle.with a board around the top to keep them in this serves them well until they get really mobile. with greyhounds and whippets it is not the light frames,but also the muscle mass on these dogs that must contribute to holding a joint. also why are heavy boned animals only found in show stock? you don't see heavy ankles on distance runners. its be said many times before "Form follows Function". overfeeding must aggravate any tendency for H.D. yes we still have much to learn. most of our hip transplants are for people who have been overweight for a large part of their lives. our skeletons were never designed for it.

"the consensus is now emerging that the causes of hip dysplasia are only about 20% genetic and 80% environmental"

That sounds logical EB. Odds on a lot of the dogs that get this issue are or have been over weight...

Yes, @Wirehunt, there is more to it though; for example the compulsion of puppy owners to work their puppies as if they are four year olds,,,

Now we're making sense, no one knows specifically the cause and the instance of HD is not restricted, or even swayed towards, obese dogs. The research is largely telling us we still haven;t got a clue.

well we have got a clue.by using dogs with low hip scores, this is a proven way to reduce the incidence of HD amongst the offspring compared to the breed average. when you have multifactoral causes both environmental and genetic then it is difficult to manage results. it terms of genetics it is not a case of a simple recessive gene,so our knowledge of genetics is of little practical help. take the case of missing molars in dogs. for decades german breed wardens eliminated such dogs from their breeding programs.yet the missing teeth remains in the population.why? because subsequent genetic research established that this condition was multi genetic and the littermates with full dentition were just as likely to carry the factor as the tooth missing littermates. needless to say this information has made no difference to the breed clubs as dogs with missing dentition are still marked down as unfit for breeding. back to HD. there is progress being made and our understanding is improving.whether the expensive xrays/hip scoring is the way forward remains to be seen. however by using this information,together with recommendations on diet and exercise,this seems the best way to manage the occurrence of HD, so it is not something to describe as clueless more like common sense.

Originally Posted by lophortyx

well we have got a clue.by using dogs with low hip scores, this is a proven way to reduce the incidence of HD amongst the offspring compared to the breed average. when you have multifactoral causes both environmental and genetic then it is difficult to manage results. it terms of genetics it is not a case of a simple recessive gene,so our knowledge of genetics is of little practical help. take the case of missing molars in dogs. for decades german breed wardens eliminated such dogs from their breeding programs.yet the missing teeth remains in the population.why? because subsequent genetic research established that this condition was multi genetic and the littermates with full dentition were just as likely to carry the factor as the tooth missing littermates. needless to say this information has made no difference to the breed clubs as dogs with missing dentition are still marked down as unfit for breeding. back to HD. there is progress being made and our understanding is improving.whether the expensive xrays/hip scoring is the way forward remains to be seen. however by using this information,together with recommendations on diet and exercise,this seems the best way to manage the occurrence of HD, so it is not something to describe as clueless more like common sense.

I'm unaware of this progress, most of the research points to virtually no change in incidence regardless of 50 years of testing and people such as Dr. Leon Mortensen have demonstrated some very interesting elements to how the XRAY process is potentially flawed and gives a number of significant examples of HD being diagnosed inaccurately, one with an English setter bitch of his own who, it transpired, had a strained ligament in it's toe. The vet maintained the X-Ray showed dysplasia, Leon, a GP with some experience of reading X-Rays, could see absolutely nothing to indicate the condition and suggested it may be a possible "easy" diagnoses in some cases.There does seem to be some merit to the newer PENNHIP scoring method though even in that it is still too early to tell.

What is even more significant to me is when we look to some specific breeds where breeding choices are based solely on working performance then the incidence of hip issues disappear virtually completely.

Wirehair's contention is not incorrect, wherever there is obesity you will have joint issues in any animal, but as a factor to HD it is not applicable nor relevant. The issue is dysplastic dogs which are otherwise healthy and in good condition, that is the issue to address, not an issue of overweight dogs. There are as many theories on HD as there are dog breeds and no evidence to indicate anyone is on the right track, but every contention, considered with an open mind, might get us closer to a solution.

One last interesting point, though totally anecdotal and only one persons experience but in 40 years of owning working gundogs and commercially training working gundogs for 20 I have yet to encounter a dog with HD. Make of that what you will. My take is that "the hill" is a better testing ground for any dog than pieces of paper or show rings.

What is even more significant to me is when we look to some specific breeds where breeding choices are based solely on working performance then the incidence of hip issues disappear virtually completely.

i dont know if the nz hunterway counts in all its forms but i never saw hd at all in literally hundreds or maybe even thousands of dogs.
most working pups were kept fat and in some exercised condition and usually started anytime fro 3 to 9 months depending on the dog or shepherd.
tendon problems occasionly and dislocation even more rarely for which rest ,at first, walking and swimming seemed to fix..
but i certainly dont remember a breed or line ever having it [hd]as a put off factor[boyntons ben aupouri,s wag sorensens fake to name 3 or even the concrete shepherd jim blinkhorne s bloke ]the only hip shoulder problems i saw were either accidental or from to much backing to young.
i trust ruff you still would want any genetic factor remove even tho its not the whole solution ie you wouldnt breed carriers/sufferers

yes,a good point is to look at our working breeds- huntaways and eye dogs,and HD is not a problem . in gundogs although i would not have observed the amount of dogs others would have on this forum, i have seen two dogs,both labs, who suffered from Hd. the hill probably does sort dogs out," the proof of the pudding is in the eating". but if some of the causes are genetic,and people breed from two year old dogs,then the condition will live on,as any problems will not have shown. with german sheperds used in police work and seeing eye dogs i think there was extensive work done in trying to reduce the incidence of HD. perhaps the outcome could be noted here.

Originally Posted by gsp follower

i dont know if the nz hunterway counts in all its forms but i never saw hd at all in literally hundreds or maybe even thousands of dogs.
most working pups were kept fat and in some exercised condition and usually started anytime fro 3 to 9 months depending on the dog or shepherd.
tendon problems occasionly and dislocation even more rarely for which rest ,at first, walking and swimming seemed to fix..
but i certainly dont remember a breed or line ever having it [hd]as a put off factor[boyntons ben aupouri,s wag sorensens fake to name 3 or even the concrete shepherd jim blinkhorne s bloke ]the only hip shoulder problems i saw were either accidental or from to much backing to young.
i trust ruff you still would want any genetic factor remove even tho its not the whole solution ie you wouldnt breed carriers/sufferers

it is in the huntaway. there has been plenty of work done on the subject and plenty of it with a shot behind the ear and down the offal hole.

Hughes (2001) surveyed 93 Huntaways and 48 Heading dogs that presented to his clinic for routine examination for problems other than lameness. The dogs were anesthetized for ventrodorsal extended-hip x-rays of the coxofemoral joints and subsequent hip scoring in accordance with the New Zealand Veterinary Association (NZVA) guidelines. Hip scores greater than or equal to 10 were considered to be dysplastic. The prevalence of hip dysplasia was 24% in Huntaways and 6% in Heading dogs. Hughes calculated that Huntaways were nearly five times more likely to have evidence of hip dysplasia than Heading dogs. Cave et al. (2009) also found that more Huntaways were presenting with hip dysplasia than Heading dogs (n=16 Huntaways, n =5 Heading dogs). At the time of Hughes’ survey the average hip score of the Huntaways (10.8) ranked it the 5th worst of the breeds assessed by the NZVA scheme in New Zealand behind Bull mastiffs, German shepherds, Bernese Mountain dogs and Golden retrievers. Heading dogs fared much better at an average score of 5.9
51
Table 2-2).
Interestingly, few of the owners of dysplastic dogs noted any signs of lameness in their animals. Hughes (2001) postulated that radiological and physical signs may not correlate well in working dogs because they are typically lean, fit and highly motivated to work. Read (2003) also noted that dogs with greater hind-limb muscle mass to support the dysplastic joint, functioned better and with fewer signs of lameness, than less muscled dogs. If the surmises of Hughes and Read are accurate then it is likely that there may be many cases of hip dysplasia undiagnosed in the working dog population, with only the most severe cases diagnosed early. Without radiographing every dog prior to breeding, the trait can persist in the population, and will only be noticed in individual dogs when advanced joint degeneration occurs.

the first dog i seen with HD was a huntaway, a bloody nice bitch out of 'quinn' whole back end was a mess.