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It is little about the puppies...but much about nutrition for the bitch pre-oestrum, in whelp and nursing...
Apparently not.Quote:
Originally Posted by EeeBees
I suggest reading again with your blinkers off. People have been told all manner of crap regarding HD over the years, much of which has been disproved. In 50 years of testing using X-Ray to diagnose HD no improvement has been made. NONE! HD parents still produce non HD pups, Non HD parants still produce HD pups. NO ONE HAS A HANDLE ON IT. Penn Hip looks to be a more reasoned way forward, but we don't even know about that yet. The answer is, no one can tell you the cause, no one can predict the occurrence, No one can tell you it's genetic, environmental, or diet... but digesting the information with an open mind might lead us to an answer... Meanwhile, anyone trying to sound knowledgeable about HD is really just blowing bullshit because no one knows the reality!:omg:Quote:
Originally Posted by EeeBees
blinkers...mmmmm, ok whatever...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruff
in whelping pups i have used a frame over which i stretch a double sided woolsack. it keeps the pups dry and warm.they are unlikely to get crushed.they get a good grip when nursing and they form a natural bundle in the middle.with a board around the top to keep them in this serves them well until they get really mobile. with greyhounds and whippets it is not the light frames,but also the muscle mass on these dogs that must contribute to holding a joint. also why are heavy boned animals only found in show stock? you don't see heavy ankles on distance runners. its be said many times before "Form follows Function". overfeeding must aggravate any tendency for H.D. yes we still have much to learn. most of our hip transplants are for people who have been overweight for a large part of their lives. our skeletons were never designed for it.
"the consensus is now emerging that the causes of hip dysplasia are only about 20% genetic and 80% environmental"
That sounds logical EB. Odds on a lot of the dogs that get this issue are or have been over weight...
Yes, @Wirehunt, there is more to it though; for example the compulsion of puppy owners to work their puppies as if they are four year olds,,,:omg:
Now we're making sense, no one knows specifically the cause and the instance of HD is not restricted, or even swayed towards, obese dogs. The research is largely telling us we still haven;t got a clue.
well we have got a clue.by using dogs with low hip scores, this is a proven way to reduce the incidence of HD amongst the offspring compared to the breed average. when you have multifactoral causes both environmental and genetic then it is difficult to manage results. it terms of genetics it is not a case of a simple recessive gene,so our knowledge of genetics is of little practical help. take the case of missing molars in dogs. for decades german breed wardens eliminated such dogs from their breeding programs.yet the missing teeth remains in the population.why? because subsequent genetic research established that this condition was multi genetic and the littermates with full dentition were just as likely to carry the factor as the tooth missing littermates. needless to say this information has made no difference to the breed clubs as dogs with missing dentition are still marked down as unfit for breeding. back to HD. there is progress being made and our understanding is improving.whether the expensive xrays/hip scoring is the way forward remains to be seen. however by using this information,together with recommendations on diet and exercise,this seems the best way to manage the occurrence of HD, so it is not something to describe as clueless more like common sense.
Mine are out from eight weeks old EB, not working, but they are out. By six months they are working.
Over weight or big dogs jumping I think is what starts it. The only bitch I've had with joint issues was one hell of a jumper, I'll also note that pure breeds seem to be more susceptible to weight issues.
I'm unaware of this progress, most of the research points to virtually no change in incidence regardless of 50 years of testing and people such as Dr. Leon Mortensen have demonstrated some very interesting elements to how the XRAY process is potentially flawed and gives a number of significant examples of HD being diagnosed inaccurately, one with an English setter bitch of his own who, it transpired, had a strained ligament in it's toe. The vet maintained the X-Ray showed dysplasia, Leon, a GP with some experience of reading X-Rays, could see absolutely nothing to indicate the condition and suggested it may be a possible "easy" diagnoses in some cases.There does seem to be some merit to the newer PENNHIP scoring method though even in that it is still too early to tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by lophortyx
What is even more significant to me is when we look to some specific breeds where breeding choices are based solely on working performance then the incidence of hip issues disappear virtually completely.
Wirehair's contention is not incorrect, wherever there is obesity you will have joint issues in any animal, but as a factor to HD it is not applicable nor relevant. The issue is dysplastic dogs which are otherwise healthy and in good condition, that is the issue to address, not an issue of overweight dogs. There are as many theories on HD as there are dog breeds and no evidence to indicate anyone is on the right track, but every contention, considered with an open mind, might get us closer to a solution.
One last interesting point, though totally anecdotal and only one persons experience but in 40 years of owning working gundogs and commercially training working gundogs for 20 I have yet to encounter a dog with HD. Make of that what you will. My take is that "the hill" is a better testing ground for any dog than pieces of paper or show rings.
i dont know if the nz hunterway counts in all its forms but i never saw hd at all in literally hundreds or maybe even thousands of dogs.Quote:
What is even more significant to me is when we look to some specific breeds where breeding choices are based solely on working performance then the incidence of hip issues disappear virtually completely.
most working pups were kept fat and in some exercised condition and usually started anytime fro 3 to 9 months depending on the dog or shepherd.
tendon problems occasionly and dislocation even more rarely for which rest ,at first, walking and swimming seemed to fix..
but i certainly dont remember a breed or line ever having it [hd]as a put off factor[boyntons ben aupouri,s wag sorensens fake to name 3 or even the concrete shepherd jim blinkhorne s bloke ]the only hip shoulder problems i saw were either accidental or from to much backing to young.
i trust ruff you still would want any genetic factor remove even tho its not the whole solution ie you wouldnt breed carriers/sufferers
yes,a good point is to look at our working breeds- huntaways and eye dogs,and HD is not a problem . in gundogs although i would not have observed the amount of dogs others would have on this forum, i have seen two dogs,both labs, who suffered from Hd. the hill probably does sort dogs out," the proof of the pudding is in the eating". but if some of the causes are genetic,and people breed from two year old dogs,then the condition will live on,as any problems will not have shown. with german sheperds used in police work and seeing eye dogs i think there was extensive work done in trying to reduce the incidence of HD. perhaps the outcome could be noted here.
I like to have the puppies out and about from to six weeks old with the bitch too...they need to be introduced to the outside world so to speak...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
I guess there is something for hybrid vigour:D The comment re purebred dogs...:D:D thems fighting words, @Wirehunt...with regard to the Epagneul Breton in France for instance, for the male to become an elite sire he must record an A or at least B HD classification along with other merits through the trialing and exhibition of his offspring...he must initially get an excellent in the showring as part of his trial championship title...
In the gundog breeds it is interesting to note that HD is apparent in show spaniels, but virtually unknown in working spaniels.
Hopefully without starting a war, the evidence of how effective specific disciplines are must be addressed.
Imagine the health of thoroughbreds if the Melbourne Cup was judged only on the birdcage parade????
I've got pure breds EB ;) They are the hardest to keep down at a good work weight and I have no idea why.
What weights are the show ring dogs generally kept at, and what fitness level?
it is in the huntaway. there has been plenty of work done on the subject and plenty of it with a shot behind the ear and down the offal hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by gsp follower
Hughes (2001) surveyed 93 Huntaways and 48 Heading dogs that presented to his clinic for routine examination for problems other than lameness. The dogs were anesthetized for ventrodorsal extended-hip x-rays of the coxofemoral joints and subsequent hip scoring in accordance with the New Zealand Veterinary Association (NZVA) guidelines. Hip scores greater than or equal to 10 were considered to be dysplastic. The prevalence of hip dysplasia was 24% in Huntaways and 6% in Heading dogs. Hughes calculated that Huntaways were nearly five times more likely to have evidence of hip dysplasia than Heading dogs. Cave et al. (2009) also found that more Huntaways were presenting with hip dysplasia than Heading dogs (n=16 Huntaways, n =5 Heading dogs). At the time of Hughes’ survey the average hip score of the Huntaways (10.8) ranked it the 5th worst of the breeds assessed by the NZVA scheme in New Zealand behind Bull mastiffs, German shepherds, Bernese Mountain dogs and Golden retrievers. Heading dogs fared much better at an average score of 5.9
51
Table 2-2).
Interestingly, few of the owners of dysplastic dogs noted any signs of lameness in their animals. Hughes (2001) postulated that radiological and physical signs may not correlate well in working dogs because they are typically lean, fit and highly motivated to work. Read (2003) also noted that dogs with greater hind-limb muscle mass to support the dysplastic joint, functioned better and with fewer signs of lameness, than less muscled dogs. If the surmises of Hughes and Read are accurate then it is likely that there may be many cases of hip dysplasia undiagnosed in the working dog population, with only the most severe cases diagnosed early. Without radiographing every dog prior to breeding, the trait can persist in the population, and will only be noticed in individual dogs when advanced joint degeneration occurs.
the first dog i seen with HD was a huntaway, a bloody nice bitch out of 'quinn' whole back end was a mess.
I know a GWP x Huntway bitch with HD. I own one of her sisters pups. And at 4 years old there is no sign of it. From what I understand there was no history of it in either parents. It's a bloody shame because she has a beautiful nature. She got retired and now days just hangs around the house.
What both these last two posts completely ignore is the other side of the coin, as presented by Mortensen and others that the X-Ray diagnosis appears to be inaccurate and flawed. The comment about all the dogs with HD that showed no signs.... umm, well do they have it or not? or is the x-ray methodology flawed? Is there any credence to be put in the Huntaway results if we are to believe that the system being used to bring these results together is to be treated as extremely suspect? While this doesn't discount the results in itself it does cast a very large shadow over their true meaning. We also have to then factor in the occurrence of complete misdiagnosis as clearly shown by LM and we then may well be on a different track.
Using statistics gained from a methodology many considered highly flawed is not going to help anyone, oh it will help some people to sell pups saying they have tested, but if the testing method is flawed what does that mean? We know non-dysplastic parents are credited with producing dysplastic dogs and vice versa, so it makes current testing, with a caveat in the meantime on PENNHIPP, virtually worthless from a genetic point of view... but it is still held up as a sales tool.
Remember Mortenson's example of his own bitch diagnosed 100% by his vet as having HD, though Leon could see no sign of it on the x-ray at all... He later discover a strain toe tendon which, when fixed, returned the dog to normal. Had the owner been a layman such as us that bitch would have been removed from the gene pool, all her progeny siblings and parents would be under suspicion and yet the reality was HD never existed in the dog. We have to question how often such things happen.
back when we done the hip scoring under the old scheme, my vet took the xrays and also gave the x ray the once over as did i, and we both had a chin wag over it...... and i payed the $530
as per the system we then waited until the results came back after being put to the panel of three vets at massey. and the official document came in the mail the results went towards the average of the breed concerned and we bred according to the average.........ideally well below the average.
now we have pennhip........same concept different ruler and different place to send the x rays............and now $600+
Mortensons example was with one breed and one bitch, and you do not state if the results were in fact one vets opinion or the official graded result of a panel of vets ?
to dismiss the systems which are used worldwide over one example is flawed..... the huntaway example does prove working breeds do have it but for many it can be a non event due to the nature of work.
when it does occur in an extreme instance most if not all don't end up as retired hanging round the woolshed.
under our vdd system we have our own vets in germany who do the grading and all dogs must have a pass to breed, works well enough for most german breeds, i think the pudelpointer has no HD at all.
pennhip or bva the system only works when everything gets scored not everything gets bred.
i have been out of the working dog seen for many years but in all the dogs ive seen at trials mustering or buying replacements or even just nosing at other peoples dogs,
ive never seen it.
ive seen it in labs so know what a bad case looks like and yes ive seen lots of working dogs get the bullet but honestly can never remember hd bieng the reason.
are you saying kawhia thats its reared its head or like algae bloom its always present waiting on some factor or other to flare up.??
my distrust of vets comes from a suspicion that they like to protect thier income a little to much and dont believe experienced dog owners are even capable of doing the simplest health care for thier dogs without thier expert supervision.its certainly a poser but breeding from anything with it wouldtn be a help.
but id guess the rediculous cost of working dogs of all kinds hasnt helped the selective breeding programs. again the backyarders and the greedy must have played a downgrading part in working dogs to.
in that every clown with a half useful dog or bitch thinks they have a fortune in the kennel.
seen a country calender episode showing vets hip scoring a bitch prior to breeding so maybe it is starting down south, and was one programme on a vet from taihape/hunterville doing the same thing too, thar will know ?
like any working breed i would expect the cull rate to be high and not just for lack of working ability.
I think the term "working" is being taken to an extreme here, though it certainly applies and my knowledge of working sheep dogs is enough for me to know the true prevalence in a general fashion, but I was referring more to the working gundog strains. Spaniels in particular. HD and other hereditary diseases are common in the show strains of springer and cocker and virtually unkown in the working strains to the point that most are not tested due to the "why test for what doesn't exist" philosophy.
Kawhia, your own website with your partner Gillian for her cockers says this....
In the 1920’s and 1930’s, Show Cocker Spaniels went through a period of huge popularity, and were ‘puppy farmed’, with the result that they became plagued with hereditary diseases, including PRA, hip dysplasia and ‘cocker rage’.
In the meantime, the Working Cocker Spaniel changed little, and remained relatively free from such diseases.
Going back to my original points....
- We have seen little to no improvement in the incidence of HD despite having a testing regime.
- We do not have any solid information to confirm that HD diagnosis is even generally accurate and only a slim hope for PENNHIPP
- We have reasonable evidencde of widespread misdiagnosis or convieniant diagnosis
- GSP FOLLOWER correctly alludes to many practises by evcen the best vets being more revenue based that reality based
- People so far claim Diet, Genetics, Envrionment, Weight and fitness, incorrect raising and now whelping boxes, to be causes.... in other words... anything...we're not sure....
In other words we don;t know what causes it, we are not even sure it exists to the degree claimed and the only thing done to change this is to continue to x-ray dogs which we know is basically ineffective. A conspiracy theorist could really doing a "60 minutes" segment on Vets and bredders on this one I believe.
What we do seem to know, and going by your website, agree on is that the real test of physical soundness and selection is best done, for best results on the hills and not under an X-Ray machine.
I wouldn;t breed any carrier or sufferer of any genetic condition I was aware of. I, personally, am against even breeding carriers to clears.... My problem in this isntance is that I am not convinced the testing telling what is and isn;t genetically predisposed is in any way accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by gsp follower
on the hill proves one side, any breeder aims for that first and foremost.
on the breeding side for some breeds the X ray is a huge part of the process.
we can hip score and at least see the science side, the huntaway example does show despite what the x rays show the dogs are still doing the job.
the working cocker has been going through a long period of revival in the uk, sadly inbreeding and pet breeding has seen the need to genetic test now.
the breed clubs feeding into the NZKC will advise on there HD status, the only measure we are looking for is the breed average, is it going up or down ?
the numbers actually being scanned did not appear to be increasing for most breeds compared to numbers whelped reagrdless.
compare that to a regulated breeding programme like the german breeds where everything gets scanned and the system works well.
Yes, many breeders use x-rays even though the reality and science shows it is very inexact and making no difference to anything. Your last sentence is an indicator, to me at least, why you are hanging on so hard to this... my suspicion is, as indicated above, it's as much about marketing as it is genuine orthopedic issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by kawhia
The cockers "revival"? :wtfsmilie: The cocker has been popular throughout in the UK and has always been a part of the shooting fabric and as significant as the springer. It is here in NZ that the upsurge in popularity, primarily among triallists, has occurred and the numbers here still do not require testing as your own website attests. Let's not use smoke and mirrors to cloud this significant issue. I do understand it is in your interest to endorse the testing as you've been an advocate of it for so long, but if faced with the facts you have the opportunity to be a leader in the breeding field of putting more importance on what is real than simply being one of the followers. The popularity of the springer and cocker has remained pretty constant since the inception and both have always been exceedingly common in the shooting fields of the UK. The physical soundness of the breeds is determined in the field and that continues. You imply change where there has been none. Yes since Bob Whitehead brought in the working cockers there has more interest in them but there numbers here remain extremely small, definitely not the case in the UK.
marketing or breed requirements ?
we breed under the German system so it's a requirement not just hips, shoulders and elbows too, we want to stay in the system so will continue to do so.... as do the pup owners wanting to complete the jghv tests.
we can not 'don't hip score' so orthopedic soundness is pretty bloody obvious when you see the results.
spaniels or labs you will see alot more health testing coming out of the UK for the working lines, endorsed by the trials world so don't get hung up on marketing bullshit and move with the times.
{will find spaniel rego figures from the uk to show it may not be as constant as you state}
i saw plenty of puppy culling anything runty obviously not right and a lot of bitch pups [which nobody wanted] dogs breed for a pup for themselves and the odd mate or 3 if either parents had any ability.Quote:
like any working breed i would expect the cull rate to be high and not just for lack of working ability.
where i saw some change is when hunterways and heading dogs got to the 5000 and 10,000 dollar mark respectivly then lots kept pups that mightnt have usually got kept for the chance of a payday.culling went out the window as long as the station was still paying for the grub
especially when you could get 80 buks for a dog that just looked the part or 150 for one that showed eye or barked in stocks general direction .
a dog running in the hunterways case or started in the heading dogs could be 250 t0 350 started.
heading dogs did and still command rediculous money but even tho i played the game a bit i never saw hd in mix.
pet border collies passed off as working bred sure a mate even brought a heading dog the sheep couldnt see over tussock it was that small.
resold to the hawkes bay for a small profit after i gave him what he payed for it.
im leaning with ruff in indiscriminate breeding and unsuitable dogs kept alive for a payday may be factors.
can testing immature dogs give you a real view of what might be a gradual thru to an after maturity degeneration??
yes i get people paying top dollar want some assurance theyre getting what theyre paying for but if the test is flawed or incomplete sooner or later everybody will suffer most especially the poor mutts.
could hd have krept in thru the labs desire to shag everything that moves and dogs from these trysts kept rebreed so on and so on??
You can find a statistic to suits your ends Jason, it still misses the point. I accept you are bound by regulation to test under the German system, but that doesn't surprise me, despite the evidence, hip testing is still extremely widely and generally accepted, I absolutely accept you must do it, I question if it is of any benefit at all.
Working spaniels and show spaniels are all lumped under one breed remember. As for moving with times, the outdated, ineffective x-ray system which has done nothing to change anything about hip diplasia is now about 4 decades old, my contention is it is about time people looked at the overwhelming facts and moved with the times.
Here's some more info to consider... (The point of all this is to highlight that there is very little definitive in any way shape or form when it comes to HD.!
Bad hips and knees: Is it hip dysplasia or a torn cruciate ligament?
Interesting that this study concludes....
Wayne H. Riser, W. Harker Rhodes, and Charles D. Newton
Section One: Theories of Pathogenesis
Canine hip dysplasia is a complex disease. It is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease. The degree of involvement varies from minute changes in bone structure to total destruction of the hip joint. Investigators have searched intensively for genetic, chemical, and metabolic defects, but the cause has remained obscure.
Hip dysplasia affects humans and all other domestic mammals. In humans, 1.3 children in 1000 are affected. In dogs the prevalence may run over 50% in large dogs if control measures have not been practiced. Few data are available on the prevalence of hip dysplasia in other mammals, but it is thought to be low. The disease is undoubtedly rare in undomesticated animals.
No specific genetic pattern of inheritance has been demonstrated in this variable disease. It has been demonstrated that both genetic and environmental influences contribute to development, regardless of the species affected.(15,31, 32,40,74,76) Consequently, the disease has been designated as polygenic or multigenic.(28) As in most polygenic diseases, there are both major and minor causative factors. There is no evidence that a primary defect of bone exists but rather the disease is a failure of the muscles and other soft tissues to hold the hip joint in full congruity.(31,32) This is further supported by the fact that bony dysplasia can be increased, decreased, or prevented by controlling the degree of joint instability and incongruity.(53) No other malformations are associated with the disease.(79) A causal relationship between muscles and soft tissue defects or pathologic changes other than lack of muscle mass or strength has not been established.(40,41)
Experimentally, hip dysplasia may be produced in many ways.(43,56,74,76,87,88) These include any circumstances that contribute to an unstable hip joint, namely, adductor forces, lack of muscle strength, chemical relaxation of the pelvic soft tissues, traumatic injury to the hip joint, and overloading of the joint by weight. Hip dysplasia is a concentration of factors from a pool of genetic weaknesses and environmental stresses that fall into a programmed pattern of progressive remodeling and degenerative joint disease.
What I begin to find as I research more and more is that they reason we see such a low incidence in working breeds is the strength and development of muscle, ligaments etc in having a high level of fitness. Wirehair may have been closer to the truth than I first thought. It may well be that it is not that the working breeds are genetically free of HD, but simply properly developed and fit.
The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.
It remains an interesting and worthwhile discussion/debate! :thumbsup:
It wouldn't even be hard to do a trial. Cross a couple of prone dogs, rare some each way. The only real issue is how hit and miss HD is, what is the earliest age they can be tested for it?
I think that after 50 years it i safe to assume it's not that simple. My concern is, it may be... perhaps it is being complicated beyond recognition... right now, who knows?????Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
and the nz results
hip dysplasia screening in dogs nz
http://www.nzva.org.nz/sites/default...2013%20Dec.pdf
None of that makes any change to what I have stated for me. I've said my bit.
NZVA? No vested interest there.
@Wirehunt, the quote of the day around the show ring is 'fit for purpose'...I laugh myself silly when I hear that...there is the quantitive 'show condition' slogan...I have had judges berate my dogs for not being in show condition (in other words they did not have enough condition...ie not fat, all muscle etc)...I told a judge that my bitch had taken a mob of steers off the crop that morning before the show when he told me she was not in show condition...he replied I do not care what she does or how many cattle she moves she is not in show condition...you should see some of the Labradors...went to a show in Taupo last year...one judge from the US favoured the more 'fit for purpose' type (of Labrador)...you get a real picture of just how we have arrived at the working and the show types...I believe, for the pedigree dogs, it is very sad testament...I have shown my dogs to prove that a gundog can be a trialist and rough shooters dog but still be correct to standard :pacman: I have had a challenge point refused on account of the judge not knowing what breed my Epagneul Breton male was...to be fair he had probably never seen one before...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirehunt
Which has really nothing to do with HD...:)
In the vast majority of instances, if it is in a show ring it is not fit for purpose. How long would Thoroughbreds last as "fit for purpose" if we changed the Melbourne Cup to the horses simply walking into the birdcage having someone pick the prettiest one and we all go home. Performance of any performance animal must always be the first benchmark. The reason we have so many of these genetic anomalies in some many breeds is because they are predominantly judged to a written standard with no performance needed. It's an absolute catastrophe for just about any animal a written standard has ever been applied to. Meanwhile... the people working their animals have few problems, it's no rocket science. Showing of dogs as a benchmark of any kind should be considered fraud.Quote:
Originally Posted by EeeBees
bieng a conspiracy theorist from way back i wonder if there is any combined vet will to solve hd it must be quite a money spinner??Quote:
The fact we know bugger all remains and anyone trying to claim something definitive in its regard is going against all of the scientific information we have at hand.
if as you say ruff xrays are practicly useless in diagnosing it i imagine like doctors vets are welded to a collective theory and practise with little financial gain or will to be the whistle blower.
the surprising result was the irish wolfhound,such a low percentage for such a large breed. even allowing for variance in human interpretation of xrays, what is the explanation for the difference in breed results other than the fact their is a genetic element?are there any other conclusions? i was surprised at the NZ brittany result although this was based on 2 dogs. as my own dog was recently evaluated(the xrays were sent to australia for evaluation)he scored 1 in each of the six components for a total of 6 against a stated breed average of 11.9.all 4 generations of ancestors have been hipscored and all have been rated good or better.