Thread: Hunting dogs vs pedigree dogs

Is it just me or does anyone else find this amusing? We have a thread titled pedigree dogs and then another one titled hunting dogs. It kind of casts a shadow on all those who get a pedigree visla, GSP, WHP etc etc etc for hunting Classic!

In our own little way we feel we can all breed a better dog than what the experts (pedigree) have done for many a year...if anyone has a labradorXsmithfield pup I would be keen.

Pedigree "show dogs" are bred to look a certain way and collect " i am wonderful " certificates for their breeder or owner. They can be full of genetic health issues but as long as they win no one cares
Working dogs generally have to perform their job properly............
Generally working dog breeders fly under the radar.

Dog breeds are inbred, with an inbreeding co-efficient of 60% on average. This is a mathematical ratio of closeness of breeding relationship. Many Pedigree breeds carry genetic faults which should be culled out but are not, one of the exceptions are Greyhounds which carry no physical faults.
When related animals carrying faults are mated those faults are concentrated along with the good characters. So pedigree animals that carry no recessive (hidden) faults are great but as most breeds do carry faults cross breeding is a safer way to get sound utility dogs. A first cross will perform at about 16% above the mean line of the two parent breeds for health, stamina, fertility, feed conversion etc and crossing will mask those faults. Using NZ heading dogs in the mix with hunting breeds is a sound step.

Got my GSP x heading dog for free and he’s taking to the bush like a duck to water. He also isn’t showing any of the complaints some people have about GSPS being whiney or prone to cold? I am not basing that on evidence only what I have heard or read

As a breeder of "pedigree " dogs I could and should take umbridge at some of the ignorance in some of your comments.
But I'll leave you with this
Hybrid vigor works...until it doesnt
For every good one you get a bad one
A dog is like anything else you buy...researched cared for investigated and respected...and any good breeder of pedigree...or non pedigree dogs will have done their homework on all the physical mental and social impacts of breeding one line to another years before producing a litter.
Including the pigdogger whose lines bail hold point indicate superbly but drop dead at 5...or the pedigree guy like me who has 40 kg of fuck off on a lead to look pretty...but will bait bring a man to bear and not have kidney or hip disease...because I have spent 30 years researching and living the bred

Greyhounds are full of disease...100s a year are in offal pits all over the country if they are not fast hard or smart enough
1st generation pootrevers are hypoallergenic
2nd generation pootrevers die of kidney disease

Some people like fords
Others holdens
And my pretty certificates took a lot of work effort and learning...but my dogs will still do their jobs.

Just like the pedigree hunting/working/showing lines of my acquaintances

Dont put us all in the same basket as your ignorance or judge us all by your limited exposure

More in the -- training - work regularity
I mean work in the environment that is intended future use
Basics entrenched at home then practical field work as regular as poss

X breed is often more successful for our type of use than pure "Kennel Club" show potential strains

Originally Posted by Boxton

As a breeder of "pedigree " dogs I could and should take umbridge at some of the ignorance in some of your comments.
But I'll leave you with this
Hybrid vigor works...until it doesnt
For every good one you get a bad one
A dog is like anything else you buy...researched cared for investigated and respected...and any good breeder of pedigree...or non pedigree dogs will have done their homework on all the physical mental and social impacts of breeding one line to another years before producing a litter.
Including the pigdogger whose lines bail hold point indicate superbly but drop dead at 5...or the pedigree guy like me who has 40 kg of fuck off on a lead to look pretty...but will bait bring a man to bear and not have kidney or hip disease...because I have spent 30 years researching and living the bred

Greyhounds are full of disease...100s a year are in offal pits all over the country if they are not fast hard or smart enough
1st generation pootrevers are hypoallergenic
2nd generation pootrevers die of kidney disease

Some people like fords
Others holdens
And my pretty certificates took a lot of work effort and learning...but my dogs will still do their jobs.

Just like the pedigree hunting/working/showing lines of my acquaintances

Dont put us all in the same basket as your ignorance or judge us all by your limited exposure

You won't change my mind sorry. The majority of breeders are not in it for the dogs, their seconds go to unsuspecting pet owners




flame away.........................

No flames
You are entitled to your opinion am entitled to mine

No matter how wrong you are ��

Oops I might have opened a wee wound here Personally for me I place a great deal in the breeding and whakapapa. Pedigree or otherwise. As a dog trialist said to me once. Its hard enough to get a good pup out of good parents. I have seen good and bad in all breeds and mixes. I guess that doesn't help. The other thing I have learned is the more breeds in a cross the greater the chance of a pup who has left field traits you weren't after.

That was a wise man
Its line breeding if it works
In breeding if it doesnt

And the absence of a fault...does not mean the presence of a virtue

I would say don't confuse show ring breeders with trials breeders. I have a hunting lines setter and he is very different from a show dog. Both come from breeders, just with different aims. At least with a pedigree dog you can see its blood line histories, genuine breeders test for the genetic issues common to their breeds as it not in their interest to sell sick pups.
If you want a hunting dog buy from a trails / hunting breeder not a show breeder.
If you want a family pet buy a show dog. (less drive)

Z

Originally Posted by Boxton

As a breeder of "pedigree " dogs I could and should take umbridge at some of the ignorance in some of your comments.
But I'll leave you with this
Hybrid vigor works...until it doesnt
For every good one you get a bad one
A dog is like anything else you buy...researched cared for investigated and respected...and any good breeder of pedigree...or non pedigree dogs will have done their homework on all the physical mental and social impacts of breeding one line to another years before producing a litter.
Including the pigdogger whose lines bail hold point indicate superbly but drop dead at 5...or the pedigree guy like me who has 40 kg of fuck off on a lead to look pretty...but will bait bring a man to bear and not have kidney or hip disease...because I have spent 30 years researching and living the bred

Greyhounds are full of disease...100s a year are in offal pits all over the country if they are not fast hard or smart enough
1st generation pootrevers are hypoallergenic
2nd generation pootrevers die of kidney disease

Some people like fords
Others holdens
And my pretty certificates took a lot of work effort and learning...but my dogs will still do their jobs.

Just like the pedigree hunting/working/showing lines of my acquaintances

Dont put us all in the same basket as your ignorance or judge us all by your limited exposure

I am neither ignorant or wrong. My post was put in a simple straight forward way that anyone interested in dogs can understand. A lot of guys were to busy at high-school looking at the legs of the girl seated next to them to remember Gregor Mendel let alone anything more complicated.
How do you calculate the inbreeding co-efficient in your dogs @Boxton which are perhaps overweight Boxers?. Dog breeds have such high inbreeding co-efficient because of the extreme inbreeding required to move them genetically from the original parent stock and then to 'fix' those breed traits - for example breeding down the original wild dog breeds that were domesticated and changing them into fancy show dogs. It is almost unbelievable that this could be done.
Hybrid vigor Always works, when unrelated breeds are crossed. Crossing two breeds gives an average 16% improvement - for example Landrace x Largewhite pigs. Mating LL sows with an unrelated breed like a Duroch will lift growth to 18%+ above the genetic mean. Mating those F1 LL sows with an F1 Boar like a Hampshire x Duroch, thus combining four unrelated breeds will produce piglets that perform 20%+ above their genetic mean. So what does this mean in relation to dogs ? What it means is that by using carefully selected pure breed lines of dogs to cross, really outstanding utility hunting dogs can be produced. If bred from the cross bred dogs should not be backcrossed to one of the breeds used in the original cross as the hybrid vigor is lost and any hidden recessive faults will be brought to the surface.
True heritable improvement will only be made within closed breed lines containing sufficient individuals but this is not a sure path for the man who just wants a sound dependable hunting dog.

i'll put it in plain english.

Parent/offspring: 25%
Full sibling: 25%
Grandparent/grandchild: 12.5%
Half sibling: 12.5%
Great grandparents/great grandchild: 6.25%
First cousin: 6.25%

a first cross hybrid is 0....it does not mean you will have a healthier dog, wolves and greyhounds have VERY high COI
but millions of pedigree dogs have that score... to lock in the traits required for working breeds means the homozygous genes need to bred for, for diversity and to keep the COI at a level that will keep the 'experts' happy heterozygous genes offer the diversity, of the same breed or by breeding mutts....like the wolves and greyhounds your natural selection or cull rate will be higher than an average line bred working litter of pedigree dogs.... kennel registration allows max of 12.5%



hybrid vigour works well for livestock......never seen it in dogs myself

Originally Posted by kawhia

i'll put it in plain english.

Parent/offspring: 25%
Full sibling: 25%
Grandparent/grandchild: 12.5%
Half sibling: 12.5%
Great grandparents/great grandchild: 6.25%
First cousin: 6.25%

a first cross hybrid is 0....it does not mean you will have a healthier dog, wolves and greyhounds have VERY high COI
but millions of pedigree dogs have that score... to lock in the traits required for working breeds means the homozygous genes need to bred for, for diversity and to keep the COI at a level that will keep the 'experts' happy heterozygous genes offer the diversity, of the same breed or by breeding mutts....like the wolves and greyhounds your natural selection or cull rate will be higher than an average line bred working litter of pedigree dogs.... kennel registration allows max of 12.5%



hybrid vigour works well for livestock......never seen it in dogs myself

I agree with you kawhia regarding breeding / fixing traits but as regards hybrid vigor, I have seen this plenty in dogs. Showing as an improvement in health and vigor. The best examples being Lab x Border collie, Greyhound x Border Collie, Visla x Heading dog, Kelpie x English Bull Terrier. The mistake made with crosses being that finding an outstanding first cross dog the owner decides to breed from it and mates it back to one of the formative breeds, when it needs to be mated to a different unrelated breed or not bred with at all. So in the examples I have seen, crossing with the very sound working dog breed has masked the faults and inbreeding depression holding back the pedigree animal and unlocked it's true potential giving the cross tremendous vigor, alertness and stamina - really sharpened it up.