Thread: Jagd Terrier

Just wondering what people can tell me about this breed as a deer hunting dog? its gaining momentum in Australia and although I probably wouldnt get one I'd just like to know a bit more about them?
Any info?
Cheers,
JAck

I don;t know much about them... there was some talk for a while on the forums about them and from memory I think they were big trail barkers but my memory could be failing me... someone will know....

Extremely tenacious dogs by all accounts...balls as big as Tiger Woods' swing!

And yes, trail barkers.

Wikipedia =
Appearance

A typical appearance of a Jagdterrier is black, and tan with the tan being more of a rust colour on the muzzle and undercarriage, a light tan should be avoided and not within the breed standard. It can also be chocolate or liver brown with white markings although the white markings and the chocolate colouring should be avoided in breeding programs along with a brown nose. Black and tan/rust markings should be the goal. The breed standard calls for an animal that stands 33 to 40 cm (13 to 15.7 in) at the shoulders, with females weighing from 7.5 to 8.5 kg (16.5 to 18.7 lb), and males weighting from 9 to 10 kg (19.8 to 22 lb). The coat of a Jagdterrier can be either hairy, smooth or broken. All varieties do shed. The tail is normally (but not always) cropped at 2/3 the natural length.
Temperament

Jagdterriers were developed to be all round hunting dogs. Though often used for quarry that dens underground, especially badger, fox, and raccoon dog, Jadgterriers are also used to drive wild boar and rabbits out of thickets, and to blood track wounded animals, such as deer. Due to their intelligence and adaptability, Jagdterriers can make good pets, but it should be remembered that they are primarily a hunting dog with a strong prey drive.
History

Between the two World Wars, game managers in Germany were focused on getting rid of "foreign" or introduced species, and bringing back now-extinct species that figured prominently in the mythology of the nation.

One of the pioneers of this peculiar quest was Lutz Heck, the curator of the Berlin Zoo, who went on to "back breed" primitive cattle and horses to "recreate" the extinct aurochs (the kind of wild cattle seen in the cave paintings at Lascaux, France) and the tarpan (a kind of primitive forest pony). Heck was also instrumental in the recreation of an extinct species (or subspecies) of zebra called the "quagga".

Heck's interest in dogs was driven in part by his passion for hunting, and in part by an over-heated nationalism that was mixed with a desire to see what could be done with selective breeding. A social climber and decided sycophant, Lutz Heck and his brother Heinz Heck were men who courted power and counted among their friends both Adolf Hitler and Hermann Göring.

Even as nationalism and an interest in genetic engineering were rising in Germany, terriers were also rising to the height of fashion in much of Europe and the United States. The Allied Terrier Show was taken over by Charles Crufts in 1886, and was the largest dog show in the world after World War I, while the first breed-specific dog publication anywhere was a magazine devoted to fox terriers. The Westminster Dog Show was begun in 1907, and the first winner was a fox terrier. A fox terrier won again in 1908, 1909, 1910, 1911, 1915, 1916, and 1917.

A fascination with terriers, fervent nationalism, and a propensity towards genetic engineering were braided together when Lutz Heck presented four black and tan Fell terriers -- similar to what we now would call a Patterdale Terrier -- to Carl Eric Gruenewald and Walter Zangenbert. Gruenewald was a "cynologist" (a self-styled dog man with an interest in genetics) and Zangenbert was a dedicated hunter with an interest in fox terriers.

It did not take much prodding on Heck's part to convince Gruenewald and Zangenbert that what the world needed was a true German Hunt Terrier to compete (and of course trump) the British and American fox terriers in the field.

Gruenewald and Zangenbert added to their team Chief Forester R. Fiess and Dr. Herbert Lackner, men with land for a kennel, and the financial means to support it over a decade-long quest.

An early problem was that the Black and Tan Terriers selected as the core breeding stock and deemed "ideal hunters" based on color alone were, in fact, not all that great at hunting. As Gruenewald later wrote:

"We were glad to own fox terriers with the hunting color, and we hoped to use these four puppies successfully in breeding to establish a hunting fox terrier breed (jagdfoxterrier-stamm). From the viewpoint of hunting these four dogs were not bad, although they left much to desire. First we tried inbreeding, pairing brothers with sisters. But the results were not good. No wonder -- after all, the parents weren't real hunting dogs. The picture changed, though, when we bred our four 'originals' with our well-trained old hunting fox terriers. The beautiful dark color continued to be dominate. Dogs with a lot of the white color and spotted dogs were selected and eliminated from further breeding."

The breeding program for the Jagdterrier was German in every sense of the word: massive in scale and unwavering in its selection criteria. At one point the men had 700 dogs in their kennels, and not a single dog was allowed to be placed outside of the kennel. Dogs that did not look the part, or which were deemed to be not of the quality desired, were shot. Early dogs were both smooth and rough coat, but the breeding program moved to get rid of smooth coats and the coat of the final product can best be described as "slape coated" -- a short, hard and wiry coat that sheds water and dirt while providing warmth in winter.

After only 10 years time the dogs were breeding more-or-less true, with a Patterdale-like appearance, albeit with more red on the undercarriage.

The German Hunting Terrier Club (Deutscher Jagdterrier-Club) was founded in 1926, and the dog was warmly embraced in part because it fit well with the rising nationalistic sentiment within Germany at the time. It did not hurt at all that Lutz Heck was a darling of the Nazi regime and counted Hermann Göring among his closest friends.

In 1938, a German by the name of Max Thiel, Sr. bought his first Jagdterrier. Thiel hunted with this dog for only a few years before the start of World War II. During the war Thiel lost his dogs, but after the war he settled in Bavaria and purchased two female dogs, Asta and Naja.

In 1951 Thiel came to the U.S, bringing with him Naja. He soon sent for Asta, who was bred and shipped pregnant. In 1954, Armin Schwarz Sr., imported a "champion" sire named Axel, and a few more litters were promulgated. In March 1956, nine Jadgterrier owners met in St. Louis, Missouri, and formed the Jagdterrier Club of America, with the expressed goal of getting the dog recognized by the American Kennel Club. In fact, the club did not prosper and eventually died out.

The Jadgterrier did not become popular in the U.S. for several reasons, not the least of which was that in the U.S. very few people hunt fox to ground. In addition, American hunters had excellent hunting dogs of their own. U.S. pit bull crosses may be the finest pig dogs in the world, while American-bred bird dogs are far superior to any terrier. Experienced raccoon and squirrel hunters were not about to give up their Treeing Walker Coonhounds or Mountain Feist to embrace a new breed of dog that most people could not even pronounce.

In recent years, with the rise of interest in terrier work in the U.S., new lines of Jagdterriers have been imported to the U.S., but most are used for above-ground or barn work due to their size. For a Jadgterrier to do well working underground in the U.S., it has to be at the absolutely smallest end of the breed standard or even undersized.

Many of the newer/later imports to the USA are within the true FCI breed standard(correct size)and are being used successfully both above and below ground with many reports of their offspring making exceptional hunting, flush and retrieval dogs both on land and in water. Today in 2010 there are many hunters across the USA adopting this courageous intelligent breed as a hunt companion because of their ability to switch between various hunt disciplines and their intelligence and aim to please attitude which is very typical of the breed, to give you some idea as to the true intelligence of this breed, not a pointing breed but yet we have a many reports of hunters using these dogs on upland bird hunts with such remarks of incredible steadiness when on point making it real easy to shoot over.

I forget where and who said it, but quoting a local ''They are extremely cheap in Germany. Buy three, only one comes home from the hunt'' - Think wirehaired fox terrier on crack with an attitude problem

HARD as nails. Used for driven hunts on big game, mostly boar. Also for digging foxes and badgers. A lot of experienced "diggers" tell me he's to hard and gets wounded severly due to getting to brave. On avarage they get dammaged more than comparable Jack Russel's, Fox terriers, .....
On the other hand clever and good noses. Even used as a tracking dog for wounded deer,boar.

Cheers guys, sounds like theyd make great den dogs over here.
I'm just not sure whether they use them as companion dogs or scent hounds over here?

Originally Posted by Bavarian_Hunter

Cheers guys, sounds like theyd make great den dogs over here.
I'm just not sure whether they use them as companion dogs or scent hounds over here?

As with your GWP question, talk to Alex at Sambarman Kennels.....he's got them.

Originally Posted by gqhoon

As with your GWP question, talk to Alex at Sambarman Kennels.....he's got them.

I'm not that serious about them I was more just curious. I've contacted about 7 different breeders here and he's the only one who hasn't got back to me so far! Bloke tony Alvarez looks alright and his pups are reasonable priced compared to others, havent heard of him much though.

Tony is Huntwyre kennels. Show and Working I believe. There is actually a Huntwyre dog here in NZ and is the Sire to my dog and Tahrs bitch.

Purchase price of the pup is irrelevant, as it costs just as much to feed a shit one for 10 years as it does a decent one.

Originally Posted by gqhoon

Tony is Huntwyre kennels. Show and Working I believe. There is actually a Huntwyre dog here in NZ and is the Sire to my dog and Tahrs bitch.

Purchase price of the pup is irrelevant, as it costs just as much to feed a shit one for 10 years as it does a decent one.

Small world hey!
So I take it that they're good? ha
Yeh I know that, my only worry is it'd hurt more getting an expensive dog hit by a car or bitten by a snake than a cheaper one. I'm happy to pay good money providing its got the breeding. I wouldn't pay $2k for one thats come from generations of pure showing lines sorta thing.

I wouldn't judge a Kennel on the performance of two litters sired by a dog that the Kennel bred. Personally, I believe the Dam brought more to the mating than the Sire. But it was their respective qualities, when brought together, that produced some excellent working dogs.

For every Kennel you look at, you need to do a lot of research on the quality of dogs they are producing, and the quality of dogs that those dogs are producing. Making a decision on the performance (or photos of dead animals) of a handful of dogs will end in disappointment for you. See as many dogs from different kennels in action as possible. That's in the field, and working. Get alongside people who have their pups and watch them develop. That is the only way to get a true picture.

Realistic purchase price will be $800-$1500. Perhaps a little more if imported dogs are used and the breeder is trying to recover the costs of that. Even then, I maintain price is irrelevant......I have an imported FCH bitch in my kennels that has cost me nothing. She is more dog than I will ever need and I simply cannot fault her. I also have a daughter from her and she cost me more than any other dog I have ever owned. Also have a dog who was a replacement for a dud I bought that cost me many thousands in vet bills due to various health issues. The replacement has cost me nothing, yet I would have paid twice the going rate because of what he has turned out to be.

Originally Posted by gqhoon

I wouldn't judge a Kennel on the performance of two litters sired by a dog that the Kennel bred. Personally, I believe the Dam brought more to the mating than the Sire. But it was their respective qualities, when brought together, that produced some excellent working dogs.

For every Kennel you look at, you need to do a lot of research on the quality of dogs they are producing, and the quality of dogs that those dogs are producing. Making a decision on the performance (or photos of dead animals) of a handful of dogs will end in disappointment for you. See as many dogs from different kennels in action as possible. That's in the field, and working. Get alongside people who have their pups and watch them develop. That is the only way to get a true picture.

Realistic purchase price will be $800-$1500. Perhaps a little more if imported dogs are used and the breeder is trying to recover the costs of that. Even then, I maintain price is irrelevant......I have an imported FCH bitch in my kennels that has cost me nothing. She is more dog than I will ever need and I simply cannot fault her. I also have a daughter from her and she cost me more than any other dog I have ever owned. Also have a dog who was a replacement for a dud I bought that cost me many thousands in vet bills due to various health issues. The replacement has cost me nothing, yet I would have paid twice the going rate because of what he has turned out to be.

This is really great advice... some of the best i have ever seen on any gundog forum!

Originally Posted by gqhoon

I wouldn't judge a Kennel on the performance of two litters sired by a dog that the Kennel bred. Personally, I believe the Dam brought more to the mating than the Sire. But it was their respective qualities, when brought together, that produced some excellent working dogs.

For every Kennel you look at, you need to do a lot of research on the quality of dogs they are producing, and the quality of dogs that those dogs are producing. Making a decision on the performance (or photos of dead animals) of a handful of dogs will end in disappointment for you. See as many dogs from different kennels in action as possible. That's in the field, and working. Get alongside people who have their pups and watch them develop. That is the only way to get a true picture.

Realistic purchase price will be $800-$1500. Perhaps a little more if imported dogs are used and the breeder is trying to recover the costs of that. Even then, I maintain price is irrelevant......I have an imported FCH bitch in my kennels that has cost me nothing. She is more dog than I will ever need and I simply cannot fault her. I also have a daughter from her and she cost me more than any other dog I have ever owned. Also have a dog who was a replacement for a dud I bought that cost me many thousands in vet bills due to various health issues. The replacement has cost me nothing, yet I would have paid twice the going rate because of what he has turned out to be.

How can anyone add anymore to that? Sage advice!

Originally Posted by gqhoon

I wouldn't judge a Kennel on the performance of two litters sired by a dog that the Kennel bred. Personally, I believe the Dam brought more to the mating than the Sire. But it was their respective qualities, when brought together, that produced some excellent working dogs.

For every Kennel you look at, you need to do a lot of research on the quality of dogs they are producing, and the quality of dogs that those dogs are producing. Making a decision on the performance (or photos of dead animals) of a handful of dogs will end in disappointment for you. See as many dogs from different kennels in action as possible. That's in the field, and working. Get alongside people who have their pups and watch them develop. That is the only way to get a true picture.

Realistic purchase price will be $800-$1500. Perhaps a little more if imported dogs are used and the breeder is trying to recover the costs of that. Even then, I maintain price is irrelevant......I have an imported FCH bitch in my kennels that has cost me nothing. She is more dog than I will ever need and I simply cannot fault her. I also have a daughter from her and she cost me more than any other dog I have ever owned. Also have a dog who was a replacement for a dud I bought that cost me many thousands in vet bills due to various health issues. The replacement has cost me nothing, yet I would have paid twice the going rate because of what he has turned out to be.

So any kennels I look at I should be getting contact details for people who have their dogs and either go out with them or at least get into contact with them if I possibly can?
Thats what the price range has basically been, one lot of gwp pups was a bit more expensive. With what your saying in mind, in reality could you just buy a dog from a backyard bloke who is breeding his two good hunting dogs together (providing they are good) for a bit of green and have the chance that it could end up as good or better than some of these "high quality" kennels? - not that thats what I'm necessarily thinking of doing just curious