Thread: Kennel vs private

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Heading dogs are tough bastards and high health. Pedigree dog breeds carry and inbreeding coefficient of around 60% ( this is a mathematical ratio for calculating the closeness of breeding) where no more than 20% is desirable. So what this means is that it is very hard to get away from the genetic faults that a breed has even with culling. Crossbreeding with a fault free breed - (heading dog) fixes it in a single stroke.
Interestingly, Greyhounds are free of genetic faults.
I have always though a GWP would be a great base for a cross with all sorts

Ok I’ll bite... ya buck toothed registered purebred will by default be around 12.5 coe ... that’s a close invercargil mating
The desired outcome most aim for is below 10 over 10 generations ... way off your actual quote of 60 which would not compute let alone get paperwork.
Going by Mickys road trip with crossbreds your fault free breed fixit don’t work as well, heading dogs go blind and deaf with the best of them... most have a line bred element as well.
Greyhounds,cheetahs and wolves all have high coe ... a lot of the best Gundog breeds do as well with no horror stories.

Originally Posted by kawhia

Ok I’ll bite... ya buck toothed registered purebred will by default be around 12.5 coe ... that’s a close invercargil mating
The desired outcome most aim for is below 10 over 10 generations ... way off your actual quote of 60 which would not compute let alone get paperwork.
Going by Mickys road trip with crossbreds your fault free breed fixit don’t work as well, heading dogs go blind and deaf with the best of them... most have a line bred element as well.
Greyhounds,cheetahs and wolves all have high coe ... a lot of the best Gundog breeds do as well with no horror stories.

Ok, so as we move forward in generations the coefficient decreases but the issue remains that on average first generations of most pedigree breeds were 60% inbred. With such a close base (low diversity) it makes it very difficult IMO to get rid of faults without getting rid of the entire strain. Dogs as diverse as Pugs, Dachshunds, Saint Bernards and Great danes as examples all come from the same original wild dogs. It is close inbreeding of certain individuals that has produced these divergent shapes and sizes.
What this means is that in some breeds it is virtually impossible to find an individual free of a major fault. Crossing to an unrelated breed doesnt make the fault disappear from the genes, but it masks it for that generation which will be good sound utility dogs

@7x64 really knows about this stuff

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Ok, so as we move forward in generations the coefficient decreases but the issue remains that on average first generations of most pedigree breeds were 60% inbred. With such a close base (low diversity) it makes it very difficult IMO to get rid of faults without getting rid of the entire strain. Dogs as diverse as Pugs, Dachshunds, Saint Bernards and Great danes as examples all come from the same original wild dogs. It is close inbreeding of certain individuals that has produced these divergent shapes and sizes.
What this means is that in some breeds it is virtually impossible to find an individual free of a major fault. Crossing to an unrelated breed doesnt make the fault disappear from the genes, but it masks it for that generation which will be good sound utility dogs

@7x64 really knows about this stuff

So you are saying first cross dogs are free of any health issues

Our first dog was purebred lab, lovely useful dog, lived to 15 but got pretty hopeless after 10-11. Our current girl is 3/4 lab, 1/4 GSP (sire was 1/2 lab, 1/2 GSP) I thought she would just be a slightly more motivated labrador. Wow the first year was terrible, absolutely headstrong, wilful, disobedient, destructive, escaping, batsh1t crazy asshole. If it wasn't for the kids she would have been moved on, I had a friend keen to try her on pigs as she is quite big. At 2 she's has improved and coming up to 3 she is a lot better and will no doubt get better with more experience and training. She is massive for what looks like a black labrador, a smaller dog would be a lot nicer to lift over fences etc. She is supposedly gluten intolerant (a common problem with GSP's apparently) but she gets a lot of bones and offcuts so doesn't get too expensive to feed. I wouldn't get anything with GSP in it again but to be fair she is getting better and I reserve the right to change my mind as she matures more.

gluten intolerant...what we did was got local butcher to make us up batch of dog rolls...no bread/wheat flour..just meat and vege with corn flour to stick it together..didnt cost us a heck of a lot compared to his regular rolls and with no fillers,dog needed less per feed.... definitely recommend this to anyone with issues.

I was hoping you would chime in bud....

Plenty of huntaways and heading digs are bred plenty close enough.... biggest issue is trial digs vs ‘station bred’/‘working parents’ dogs.


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disclaimer: im no expert.........

i am up to dog number 4and will probably get number 5 later this year .....
#1 was a huntaway/retriever ....all kinds of intelligent and easily trained she responded to hand signals and subtle gestures got cancer made it to 10 years
#2 ridgeback purebred , he was the runt of the litter and we got him for free as he couldnt be sold due to his oesophegas not being fully developed? (he would have been put down if we didnt take him) the wife put in the effort and e were told by a few vets to put him down he wont make 3 months... anyhoo he grew tall and lean how a ridgey should be not bulky like some you see after dog #1 died he kinda lost interest in stuff and they are couch potatoes anyway his back and hind quarter muscles wasted away to the point wher he didnt have the strength to lift himself up off the floor he made it to 11
#3 (and still current ) whippet/heading dog (i think) cross pound pup no health issues as yet , had to have her dew claws removed as the were growing out at 90 dgrees and she was always chewing on them...... shes a small dog 6yrs and would expect her to be active well past 12 harder to train as she isnt food driven
#4 lab/waimerana .... we inherited this one when she was already 6 yrs she came with all sorts of issues , immune deficiency alergies skin problems anxiety i could go on we knew all this when we got her she was good natured but highly stressed (we took her from a high stress environment into a calm place where she always had companionship , dog or human)but was happy and had a good laid back retirement eventually her mind started to go she made it to 11 .
guess the point is (if there is one ) is that any dog can have issues and all dogs are susceptible to genetic anomolies just like people and i think our big dogs have done well to make it to 10/11 yrs they had good lives with us.
and again just my opinon based on the dogs ive had and i am no expert...

If you want a dog and want to steer wife/partner/missus/kids the right way breedwise this has worked for me.
Decide on breed.
Then take them look at some pups.
They are suckers for any pup and you then have the breed sorted.
Second piece of advice have manners on them at home but let them be the pet/friend with the family.
I didn't do too much with dogs at home but when across the creek or out hunting my rules.
Keeps everybody happy.
Dogs work it out.
I had a weimaraner and I reckon them, gsps etc are just different colour versions of the same.
Did like the weimaraner she lived to 18.
Have had both purebred kennel types and home bred either can do what you want.
You have to like the dog and go from there.
Had one springer from Robert Dollimores wife and he was a beauty and cocker I didnt get on with.
Another springer dopiest thing I have ever had and gave to a mate he shot over her and she died of old age.

Shite 18 is a bloody good run out of a big dog.
All my dogs have been pets so can't really add anything to the working/hunting dog story.
However, all dogs are subject to the variations of different health outcomes we are. Even a dog from a kennel who have hip scored parents and done all the scans will not guarantee a disease free dog. For genetic conditions obviously a kennel breeding to reduce the incidences of it will give you a better chance of having a pup without those problems.
So many variables and every breed has their own problems and susceptibilities.
Good luck with your choice

I have an 18wk old Vizsla pup that I got at 9weeks - pure bred, papered from a well regarded breeder with all health tests for parents etc - cost less than unpapered backyard pups on trademe and comes with life long support from the breeder. Was a long wait to get a pup though

This thread sums up NZ hunting dog culture - the guy is asking where the better GSP's come from, and everyone's recommending him a farm dog cross without knowing the intended usage.

My advice is pick the breeder. Warwick Rapley in Kiokio and Gale Blankley in Auckland spring to mind for GSPs. Visit both and make your own mind up.

Originally Posted by Pointer

This thread sums up NZ hunting dog culture - the guy is asking where the better GSP's come from, and everyone's recommending him a farm dog cross without knowing the intended usage.

My advice is pick the breeder. Warwick Rapley in Kiokio and Gale Blankley in Auckland spring to mind for GSPs. Visit both and make your own mind up.

Know of any breeders in the South Island?


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Sorry HOO, I don't. Doesn't mean they're not out there though. I recommended the two above as a starting point for you, both are quite different kennels, with different genetics and breeding objectives, but you might find one suits you better than the other. Remember you'll be feeding this dog for 15 years, it pays to start with the best-bred pup possible for your needs. Good luck

and your post @Pointer sums up internet mentality as of late where folks get upset on another's behalf.NZ hunting dog culture my arse....... WHO HAS RECOMENDED a farm dog cross????
I was giving history of WHAT I HAVE OWNED....health issues etc
others have chimed in with same...
crossbreeding VS purebred has been...debated...but you can crossbreed two purebreeds of diferent types too.....
for all we/you know he wants dog to lie on lounge floor to keep his feet warm.