Response to Vizsla thread on the other forum

[Pointer]

Hi, I have registered to reply to the the thread on the other forum but they aren't approving my application to rejoin Perhaps someone can copy this and paste it there under my old name on that forum, 'Jap'?

The whole discussion is interesting in many ways. I have a few things I would like to discuss and share. I understand I will upset probably everyone at some stage; the show crowd, the working crowd, the works, but bear with me, I would like to be heard and in return hear the response.

Firstly, to say there hasn't been a full working import in the history of the breed in NZ is true - to an extent. There was a Paradox dog from the US that turned up here in the early 1980s, from a long line of Dual Ch and FCHs. Also, I can think of two studs available in NZ right now, who are half Hungarian FTCH lines, from the Hubertus Pannonia mating which happened in Aussie between two European FTCHs, and produced FTCHs and FTWs in Aussie. Both of these sires have produced good working puppies here in NZ. One, over utilized in my opinion, one, under utilized, but that is a matter of politics, the bane of all 'doggy' people... Also, at present, there are two litter sisters, whose sire is English working stock, and their dam was imported in whelp from Hungary's' oldest working kennel, very purely bred right back as far as you can go. One of the litter sisters is owned by Dave Wilson, The other by FnH forum mod Chris. Bear in mind that European tested 'working' stock may not be what NZers want, but I'll get to that later. There has, and is to some extent, working blood present in NZ.

Secondly, To say that the breed is on a slippery slope is, in my opinion, 100% correct - from both the show, and the working crowd here in NZ! (this is the part where everyone gets their noses out of joint). To selectively breed solely on it's performance on deer, in my opinion is as bad as the people who selectively breed a dog based on its conformation for showing. We all know or have heard of a Vizsla who has a bad mouth, lacks range, or drive, who hates water, certainly not retrieving off it. "But hey - hes my deer dog so it's OK". Certainly not the versatile breed it is supposed to be. Who is breeding these dogs? If you too select for only one trait you can't blame the show crowd. For as long as everyone takes a one-eyed approach to the breed, thats what we will get.

Before we talk imports, lets look at what we have. By and large, all NZ Vizsla can go back with a few generations to the same repeat offenders, the good work done by Jan Edwards in her kennel Szep-Allat in NZ, and Agnes Palis' Hubertus and Fay Harris' Hanafor kennels, both in Aussie. All basically show based, although Jans' stuff were recognized here as a working kennel. When we talk working Vizsla in NZ we are only a few generations removed from English show stock, some of which hadn't seen work for 40 years since it left Hungary. That these dogs carried useful traits to this day is in my opinion, sheer good luck rather than good management.

So we take a hunting dog from continental Europe, we give it to show/pet home Poms for 40 years, with little regard to its breeding other than it looks like a Vizsla and is easy to live with, then send it to Aussie, who sends their show rejects here, and voilà - Instant NZ hunting dog. What we have here is essentially a watered down version of the original. And its a hit here! It is a hit here because of our low expectations of the dog, and our dog training culture. Lets face it. Deer work isn't the hardest job description. While a good indicator is a joy to have and behold, there are any number of calm, level-headed dogs capable of scenting a 50+kg animals scent cone from hundreds of metres away. (there is, however a lack of people capable of training even this) Dog bred to be slow and even tempered, and of lower drive, succeed here - aka the show/pet bred Vizsla.

Then get told what we have is bad, so we look to Europe for the answer. There are HPR breeders involved in the German breeds here, that have recently been actively involved in the importation of hunt-tested bloodstock. The Real Deal, so to speak. But in my conversations with them, they are quick to say that while they have something to add, they also may be to much of a good thing (or too much of a thing?) for the average kiwi hunter.

My question is this. Are we importing new blood to improve what we have here? The answer should be yes. If so, can anyone tell me, what exactly are they trying to improve? Who can tell me what traits are lacking NZ Vizsla? I can name a few. It is easy to get caught up in the excitement of importing. But are you doing it to provide something your line doesn't have, or doing it just because you're told it is the right thing? To say you have "working" blood? Or to fix a real, not imagined problem?

I commend the likes of Conmadjackvann, bringing in a much needed and valuable boost to the genepool here. However, one mating won't change the world. Not only will it take more than one import, it will take successive selection placed on the progeny. One thing best not left to chance in NZ, with all manner of conflicted interests within the breed. This means a commitment, and a long term breeding goal. What that goal is one can only hope is a truly versatile Vizsla, useful in our conditions here in NZ on all of our game species.

Which brings me to my next point. NZ is a wonderful proving ground for a versatile dog, with readily available game of all types. It makes me happy to see the likes of CraigCs bitch being used on the pond one minute, the next on deer. I enjoyed seeing HunterTomos' Vizsla showing nice range and solid point on the riverbed hunting pheasants. Conmadjackvanns 'Jas' needs no mention here too. What is also important is that the majority of people behind these are young(ish), active hunters. What better proving ground? What we have here is unique. What needs to happen is for some ownership, someone to take the breed and put it on the right track. No small task. To do this, we need to stop looking at what the label on the box says, and look at the dogs in question. Once we have sorted the wheat from the chaff of what is here and identified where it lacks, then you can work forward.

Just my thoughts, I welcome any feedback on the matter.

Jim

[phillipgr]

Not a member on the other forum so can't help but an interesting read. You seem like a guy cares about the facts and doesn't say something that can't be backed up with them. I like that.

[Tahr]

Interesting. I'm CraigC's Dad, and I hunt with Eva and Craig quite a bit. Craig has done a great job with her, but most of the credit must go to Eva.
She is quite an accomplished dog. She retrieves off land and water (albeit that it has taken her 3 seasons to really take to it). I saw her do some very difficult retrieves on the Manawhatu river this opening. She hunts pheasants enthusiastically and has a lovely firm point. She ranges really well, and wants to please. She is great on deer too.

So, she is not just a deer dog. She is quite accomplished at many things and this has mostly arisen through use and natural ability. And here's the thing; she is a better all round dog than my Wirehair from a much touted kennel that is very focussed on improving the GWP breed.

From my perspective, I would rate Eva as being a great foundation bitch for an improvement program as suggested by you Pointer. In the first instance someone would need to take Craig aside and guide him towards a great import or semen. And then someone else would need to take up the challenge of breeding from the progeny in a similar manner, and making an investment in the next cross. Someone would need to make a financial investment.

Of course, there are probably other Visla bitches that could be the foundation for something great, but my experience is limited to Eva.

My point being that here is a Visla bitch that is far more than just a deer dog. She performs as well if not better than some new generation GWPs and could be the foundation of something great if the correct course is taken.

[gimp]

They look cool, too

[Pointer]

Encouraging to hear Tahr, thanks for your feedback. I put this merely up to stimulate dialogue. There is a lot of active hunters involved directly with the breed, surely together they could do something great

They look cool, too

Yeah, the downfall of the Vizsla I fear, if not bred by hunters, for hunters

[EeeBees]

Very interesting post, Pointer...

[Pointer]

Thank you Phillipgr and EBs. I have now been accepted so I can post there, lets hope it stimulates some good discussion