What is the correct distance

Hi guys,
Just interested to know what distance people think is the correct or good distance to have a dog work from you when deer hunting?
I've heard everything from "at your feet" to "10 metres in front"
Just wanting to know the pros and cons of both?

My initial thought would be to have it in close as too far out and they can take off, become too hard to read and run the risk of being spotted before you're even in a spot to see the deer. Cons of having it too close I spose you may miss the signs from your dog as well and it may limit its effectivenes. because its glued to one spot essentially

Fire it at me

BH

close enough to poke with the barrel.....
but throw ya tape measure away, if the dogs steady to game and under control i'm happy with my dogs to be within eye shot in the bush.
contary to what tussock says it's actually the nose you are using on the dog, not the eyes, hunting into the wind the value of a strong pointing breed really comes into play, as the natural desire to point and road in comes to the fore........ all you are hunting is the deer scent cone, if you intend waiting for the dog to spot the deer before you do then leave the dam thing at home.

I would of thought it was up to how the individual would like to hunt with it.

Close enough so you can stick the barrel in his ear if he's not listening it's quite surprising how they suddenly smarten their act up when I do that :thumbsup:
They know what comes out of the bang stick and what it does

trip over ya dog much ?

i have steady dogs, and can see them slow right up even if they are out in front, we can start the roading process as soon as i instruct them to walk on, skills best learnt on the bird front..... if i want them closer i'll tap my leg, but i like my space to hunt as much as they do.
not sure where you hunt but most of our shit is uphill or down hill, walking along a footpath is different to the field, having the dog under control does not need to be attached to ya knee............. avoiding the retriever position is another hurdle to avoid as well....{just behind you}

I noticed the Aussies seem to like the dog way out in front approach, and some of the open bush in the Vic highlands it would be fine. Would cost you a lot of deer here in the NI bush.

A young dog will always stretch out as he gets older and more confident so it pays to keep a pretty tight heel when starting out. I had a bitch who when sidling along 10-15 metres below a ridgeline would leave my side, make her way quietly to the top the ridge to scent a different breeze, then come back and join me. All within eyesight of course. Nothing wrong with that in my books

Yep, nothing wrong with a dog showing a bit of initiative. However I have to emphasize this happened when she was older, and I knew she wasn't pissing off on me or self hunting

I'm more of a red and fallow hunter than sambar so the country we hunt in is flat and varies from thicker to less dense than the high country. I dont know if that affects the way I should do it at all.

Thats a good point people are brining up and one I've wondered - I have a 300WM and Australia being the great country that it is has banned supressors so the pup is going to be copping some noise.

Am I therefore better to keep her behind the muzzle i.e. very close?

Or should I say - Keep it behind the muzzle but allow it to take some slack as long as its obedient?

im going to train my next meat dog to hunt out in front, I will have the ability to cast it long right and left out to 10-30 meters depending on bush type, Out of sight is not a problem to me as you need to make maximum use of its nose , , i will teach it to hold point on deer sent from large distances , and during pointing training (witch would be on birds and fixed deer :o) i would concentrate alot of time on roading-in training, having a start and stop command for it , and i would train the german style of finding when it comes back with its collar in mouth ,

Here's from that article by Herb Spanngl

"In bush hunting classic heeling is not the answer because you have to constantly turn around to see how your dog is reacting to the constant stream of airborne scents. The best position for the dog is far enough forward that it's shoulder is by your left knee. But beware, any further ahead and you are running the risk of the dog being spotted before you see the deer. Besides the knee position anchors the dog to a clearly defined place. You might think all that is too finicky but believe me, if you let the dog roam it will be hard to keep it close. Inevitably you end up worrying more about the dog than deciphering what is in front of you."

Hope it helps

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Originally Posted by Kaimaicockher

im going to train my next meat dog to hunt out in front, I will have the ability to cast it long right and left out to 10-30 meters depending on bush type, Out of sight is not a problem to me as you need to make maximum use of its nose , , i will teach it to hold point on deer sent from large distances , and during pointing training (witch would be on birds and fixed deer :o) i would concentrate alot of time on roading-in training, having a start and stop command for it , and i would train the german style of finding when it comes back with its collar in mouth ,

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i think i can provide you with the raw material bro.

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Originally Posted by kawhia

i think i can provide you with the raw material bro.

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will pm you , i know some one who is looking for one also so will gave them a call also ,

of course...... common sence will mean every deer within 20kms will just ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

So ranging out of sight, will you be using verbal commands?

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depends yes and no , you dont need commands to cast a dog left and right it just will if trained to, Then a heel command on way back past if thats what you want

i think to many deer stalkers are dismissing bird hunting techniques , when a pointer or flushing dog is hunting birds a WELL trained one will cast from left to right with no commands it will also stop to point or a flushing dog will flush a bird off its nose and sit with out moving with no commands ,

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Originally Posted by Kaimaicockher

depends yes and no , you dont need commands to cast a dog left and right it just will if trained to, Then a heel command on way back past if thats what you want

i think to many deer stalkers are dismissing bird hunting techniques , when a pointer or flushing dog is hunting birds a WELL trained one will cast from left to right with no commands it will also stop to point or a flushing dog will flush a bird off its nose and sit with out moving with no commands ,

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I think too many deer hunters, especially ones with HPR breeds, don't understand how mutually beneficial the two are

That Herb thing, the oldman had a pointer that would touch his knee with his muzzle if there was something about. The rule was if he did that stop and really start looking, there was a deer there you just gotta find it. Ignore and spooked deer.

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Originally Posted by Tussock

I don't doubt it. But there is a HUGE difference between a deer and a bird.

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But how a dog should work them isn't

I reckon I'd shy away from using dogs out of eye shot, maybe you're NZ deer need to come equipped with hearing aids but ours have pretty handy hearing ha

I know a few bird doggers, one with a brit actually so is it worth going out with him and learning a bit from that? I agree with bits and pieces of what everyone is saying. I still am not convinced either way though on close or mid ranged. I spose the main thing now is I dont want to a) make the dog deaf and b) make it gun shy

Keep it close. Spend time with the bird dog guys to get the dog steady, then just take one step forward to have the muzzle in front of dog when shooting. Gun shy is a man made condition, and one easily avoided

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Im confused, are you being facetious or are you actually suggesting you are going to use verbal commands and deer are just going to ignore it?

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i'm pulling ya chain.

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Originally Posted by Pointer

Keep it close. Spend time with the bird dog guys to get the dog steady, then just take one step forward to have the muzzle in front of dog when shooting. Gun shy is a man made condition, and one easily avoided

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+1 especially when the dog is learning its craft.

For deer keep it close rules, in fact is the only rule.

I know a guy that is happy to let his dog hunt 100m away because he knows what he is doing and he knows he will sit and stay if it comes on to any thing of interest.

Is that in the bush malhunting? If so, how does he know where his dog is at a 100m range?

I bush hunt with my dog at heel, which is about his last rib next to my leg... definitely a rough shooters heel as opposed to a no-slip... I'm happy for him to duck under and over things but expect him to come back to heel.

More bush edge stuff but he is also happy for him to hunt a bit of distance in the bush but it does come down to visibility on that one like you say. He has a very good hunting dog so trusts him 100% to do his job as trained.

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Originally Posted by Malhunting

trusts him 100% to do his job as trained.

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The ultimate goal for us all!

No one has mentioned the element of knowing and keeping in touch with your dog, except Wirehunt.
I think you must be able to read your dog and create a symbiotic relationship. I like the dog to be in contact with me, and that means quite close. I aslo like to see the dog looking back and communicating with me, and looking for ques from me.

Out of touch, means out of mind. Equals problems.

About trust. I've owned hundreds of dogs, and have never trusted one of them.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

never trusted one of them.

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Why not Tahr?

I would have thought the whole point of owning, training and running a dog would be to reach the the point when you do trust them to do thier job and all it entails.

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Originally Posted by popgun

Why not Tahr?

I would have thought the whole point of owning, training and running a dog would be to reach the the point when you do trust them to do thier job and all it entails.

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Its splitting hairs a bit (by me), but having confidence in a dog is different to trusting them. They will and do let you down. So I have confidence in my dog to the limit of where I confidently predict she understands and will likely do the right thing through her training and experience. Out side of that is uncharted waters. So I keep mine inside the the envelope of confidence, not the one of trust.

I never trust a gun dog around stock. I never trust any dog around kids.

I might ad that my dog is only average, and so am I. But I've had 50 years of thinking about this stuff.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Its splitting hairs a bit (by me), but having confidence in a dog is different to trusting them. They will and do let you down. So I have confidence in my dog to the limit of where I confidently predict she understands and will likely do the right thing through her training and experience. Out side of that is uncharted waters. So I keep mine inside the the envelope of confidence, not the one of trust.

I never trust a gun dog around stock. I never trust any dog around kids.

I might ad that my dog is only average, and so am I. But I've had 50 years of thinking about this stuff.

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Thanks for the explanation, I hear what you're saying.

I appreciate 'average'... most if the time it seems more realistic than loftier goals :D

finding the bench mark is the hard part....... even for average.

In my experience enjoyment is tied to confidence and/or trust (or any other word you might prefer) whether it's in your own or anyone (man or dog) elses ability to perform.

For example your not going to enjoy mountain climbing if you don't have confidence in your ability to not fall off! Similarly, hunting with a dog isn't much fun if you don't have confidence it's going to perform (e.g. hunt, heel, steadiness etc).

My benchmark is a dog that does its job consistently, whether competing or not.

By the way, I haven't reached my benchmark yet :D

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Originally Posted by Tussock

Im confused, are you being facetious or are you actually suggesting you are going to use verbal commands and deer are just going to ignore it?

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My dog understands Swahili. Most deer havent heard it so maybe its an advantage haha.

On a serious note.
I have my dog in front buy his body lenth.
he is not a conventional gun dog he is a strong eye collie.
but he has a nose that can seperate carrots in a stew and eyes and ears far exeeding mine and he dose what he is told i think thats all that matters.
for my way of hunting.

as for a deer seeing a dog before a human, more likely they will see your shiny knee caps or face 3 ft behind the dog before seeing the dog.
and for noise and not talking to your dog, that depends on how hard the area you are hunting is hit. i once read or got told a deer can hear a watch ticking at 70m..
That would mean most deer ive shot new somthing was up?
On tuesday my dog had started shakeing his head.ears flapping making a hell of a racket..thort about it for a sec, sounds much like a wood pidgon taking off.