What do you make of this behaviour

Bo is coming up 11 months now. He's a been a real joy to have as a pup and learns things pretty quick. He's and inside dog at night time and usually sleeps in the lounge with our other dog Knox, who is an 18yr old pureplbred Staffy. Both dogs are entire but pretty laid back sorts and have always got along well but lately they just seem "funny" around each other.
They have play heaps even though the old boy gets a bit sick of it sometimes and a short sharp snap tells Bo playtime is over. The other day however we were both in bed alseep when we were woken by them both going at it in the lounge having a massive (serious) scrap which they have never done before.
They have continued this "strange" behaviour since then and will sit on opposite sides of the room eyeballing each other.
Fast forward to this evening and I had just got out of the shower and was getting dressed when Bo came into the room, he came over and sat near me and Knox (older dog) came and sat in the doorway of the bedroom. Bo then proceeded to jump up onto the bed (which hes not allowed to do) and cocked his leg and pissed all over it right in front of me!
Is there some kind of power struggle going on here as Bo has reached the age where he thinks he can now be the top dog?

Yep I would say he is trying to be top dog. Our oldest dog that is not normally allowed inside did the puss on the bed thing a while back. Our youngest dog is always in her face when I let them out.

Your on to it.
Had the same sort of thing happen with my working dogs. I'd give them a severe talking to and let them know I was top dog no more trouble

Yep Bo is trying it on with the old dog. I would reaffirm the old fellas place as above Bo, by feeding him first and letting him go through a door before the young one. Maybe move the old fellas bed into your room for a couple of nights, but watch for Bo having a whinge about it. maybe give the young boy a bit more obedience stuff like sit, stay etc...
The old guy will be letting Bo know that he is below him which may lead to a bit of a huha. Bo coming in, will be because the old dog kicked him out of the lounge which he's trying to claim back off the young upstart.

the other thing to add is maybe he senses the old boy is getting near the end... have had it a couple of times now where the younger dog has stamped hi authority when the older one is very close to giving up on life not so much fighting but stepping up as the dominant one (number 3 after me and mum) and protector of the pack

Yep. Bo wanting dominance. The dogs will sort it out themselves. The only thing you have to keep an eye on is if Bo continues the agro once he is established. If that occurs you will need to discipline Bo any time he tries to go too far. By discipline i mean something like ; if there is agro coming from Bo then immediately tie him up at kennel for an hour or two each time while walking off with other dog ; or other way round if it is older dog at fault. You need to observe them closely to figure out what is really going on before restricting one or the other, or both. They will soon associate loss of freedom with immediate prior misbehaviour.

It is a leadership issue, and it won’t be resolved by re-establishing order between Bo and Knox. You resolve by re-establishing order between yourself (meaning your entire family) and the two dogs. You’re number 1, not either of the dogs.

Bo would be outside so fast and into a kennel his arse wouldn't hit the ground. Every time he showed signs of this behaviour, out the would go.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Bo would be outside so fast and into a kennel his arse wouldn't hit the ground. Every time he showed signs of this behaviour, out the would go.

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Yes he spent the coldest night of the year so far on a chain...
Have been pretty busy on farm lately (calving time) and Bo has been with me all day while Knox is with mum doing the calves so there's possibly a bit of a dynamic they're not used to causing some issues as previously all together most the time with Mum and Dad as top dogs

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Originally Posted by gqhoon

It is a leadership issue, and it won’t be resolved by re-establishing order between Bo and Knox. You resolve by re-establishing order between yourself (meaning your entire family) and the two dogs. You’re number 1, not either of the dogs.

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What gqhoon says

I would have 270d Bo for pissing on the bed! Prob solved, your becoming soft, there’s the prob!:thumbsup:

Hate to say it but, you must not be showing that your the boss daily if this is happening. Over both dogs.

No I don't think so Kidmac. If the dog is pushing for top spot it will be showing aggression toward the owner who is in that spot. The lower ranked dogs are fighting over their place in the pack below the boss.

your recent health wake up will be unsettling them both too....but as others have said its a dominance thing...Bo just past being a teenager and realling feeling his oats.
pissing inside......major shake up from you...YOU the boss.....dont you forget it Bo....or upside down with a plurry good shake up you will get...
if you like me and hate dog chained up...run a #8 wire from kennel as far as you can across yard and clip chain to it...that way dog can run up and down wire...piss n poop at far end away from kennel,but is still tied up out of trouble.

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Originally Posted by rugerman

No I don't think so Kidmac. If the dog is pushing for top spot it will be showing aggression toward the owner who is in that spot. The lower ranked dogs are fighting over their place in the pack below the boss.

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There is no such thing as number 1, number 2, number 3 etc. There is only number 1, with all the rest below. The hierarchy of those below is irrelevant for them, provided they are given leadership by the number 1.

The root cause of this behaviour is that the dogs don’t see Ryan as that leader.

Yep I totally agree that those below the alpha are of no concern to the alpha. The boss only cares that he eats first, not which order the others eat etc... That is up to the lower ranks to sort out for themselves. Hierarchy's are a fairly well established principal in animal behaviour. A weak leader will cause trouble for the pack, since all positions may now be up for grabs even the top spot, so will cause problems. Obviously if none of the dogs are having a go at him, then they still recognise him as the boss.
A new baby, puppy or other member of the family, often causes problems since all members of the family want to know what position that new member is going to have.

Early dominance training and socialising is important (or has been for me with pups anyway).
Its probably not too late to do this with Bo:

Put him on his back and calm him. Hold him with your hands on his tummy. Don't let him move. If he moves, calmly rebuke him "no Bo" and tighten your grip a little. Relax your grip when he relaxes. Get him so he is completely submissive on his back - just laying completely still for as long as you want. You are in charge. I start this at about 8 weeks with pups.

I progress to taking food off them at the kennel. If they pull back or snap, I rebuke. You should be able to put your hand around their mouth and face when they are eating and be able to take food from them without the slightest display of aggression or ownership from them. Any aggression and they get a sharp "no", and sometimes a tap on the nose. When you give the bone (say) back they should take it gently and not snatch it. You should be able to put your hand in their mouth while they are eating.

None of this came from a book. Just my own home spun wisdom and what I learnt from shepherds and farm doggy people. Ive had dozens of working dogs in my lifetime.

its uncanny just how similar our findings are.....

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Early dominance training and socialising is important (or has been for me with pups anyway).
Its probably not too late to do this with Bo:

Put him on his back and calm him. Hold him with your hands on his tummy. Don't let him move. If he moves, calmly rebuke him "no Bo" and tighten your grip a little. Relax your grip when he relaxes. Get him so he is completely submissive on his back - just laying completely still for as long as you want. You are in charge. I start this at about 8 weeks with pups.

I progress to taking food off them at the kennel. If they pull back or snap, I rebuke. You should be able to put your hand around their mouth and face when they are eating and be able to take food from them without the slightest display of aggression or ownership from them. Any aggression and they get a sharp "no", and sometimes a tap on the nose. When you give the bone (say) back they should take it gently and not snatch it. You should be able to put your hand in their mouth while they are eating.

None of this came from a book. Just my own home spun wisdom and what I learnt from shepherds and farm doggy people. Ive had dozens of working dogs in my lifetime.

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I don't think there's any problem whatsoever with either of the dogs seeing me as the boss I don't even need to "take" food from Bo he won't eat untill I tell him too and I can literally walk away and leave him with the food and he won't eat it, can also tell him "wait" while he's in the middle of eating and he'll go back to waiting for me to tell him he can eat again. He will muster for me no problems (pretty simple mustering, "come left, go right, push em up" ) although we haven't put much focus on that as he's a hunting dog and companion first. Will stop and sit or lay down at any distance within earshot and "go and get up" on the truck even if it's hundreds of metres away. I have zero problems with his general obedience and have never once hit him or shaken him up or anything, he still knows what growly voice is all about. He's actually been very pleasant as far as being easy to train, good hunting instincts and general behaviour, even when he was younger everyone who has met him comments on what a laid back pup he is, never jumps on people or gets annoying and excited so in general he's growing into a good solid mate. It's just the funny behaviour between the dogs themselves that has been causing issues.
Home life has been shaken up a lot lately, it's Bo's first calving so often we are out on farm from dark untill dark and we don't see mum or the other dog all day or if we do it's just a quick chat when we see her then off again, he's used to coming home every few hours, trips off farm all of us together etc and I recently had a medical event that maybe he's picked up on a bit although I still feel like I've been normal old me the entire time.
He's back inside this evening and no problems although the two of them seem to be giving the playfights a miss now and keeping to themselves.

good to hear....now you slow down and look after you PLEASE...... how else will we all benefit from all the 2nd hand rifles you pass onwards????
take care bud.

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

I don't think there's any problem whatsoever with either of the dogs seeing me as the boss I don't even need to "take" food from Bo he won't eat untill I tell him too and I can literally walk away and leave him with the food and he won't eat it, can also tell him "wait" while he's in the middle of eating and he'll go back to waiting for me to tell him he can eat again. He will muster for me no problems (pretty simple mustering, "come left, go right, push em up" ) although we haven't put much focus on that as he's a hunting dog and companion first. Will stop and sit or lay down at any distance within earshot and "go and get up" on the truck even if it's hundreds of metres away. I have zero problems with his general obedience and have never once hit him or shaken him up or anything, he still knows what growly voice is all about. He's actually been very pleasant as far as being easy to train, good hunting instincts and general behaviour, even when he was younger everyone who has met him comments on what a laid back pup he is, never jumps on people or gets annoying and excited so in general he's growing into a good solid mate. It's just the funny behaviour between the dogs themselves that has been causing issues.
Home life has been shaken up a lot lately, it's Bo's first calving so often we are out on farm from dark untill dark and we don't see mum or the other dog all day or if we do it's just a quick chat when we see her then off again, he's used to coming home every few hours, trips off farm all of us together etc and I recently had a medical event that maybe he's picked up on a bit although I still feel like I've been normal old me the entire time.
He's back inside this evening and no problems although the two of them seem to be giving the playfights a miss now and keeping to themselves.

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Thats good background. Just chucking some ideas around for you.

I think since the 2 dogs are separated during the day, and Bo is probably getting his testosterone hit. He is thinking that he is the man so he's trying it on with the old fella. If you think the old boy can give Bo the nip, no worries he will give him the message and Bo should pull his head in. But if there could be some damage, vet bills aren't much fun. My 24kg Huntaway (Rocky) thought he was the man, but my 50kg Rottie knew otherwise. $500 vet bill and that was with the Huntaway rapidly pulling out of the shit he started.
Once they start play fighting again watch them closely to make sure Bo isn't getting the upper hand or he might try the old fella on again at another time.

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Originally Posted by scotty

the other thing to add is maybe he senses the old boy is getting near the end... have had it a couple of times now where the younger dog has stamped hi authority when the older one is very close to giving up on life not so much fighting but stepping up as the dominant one (number 3 after me and mum) and protector of the pack

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We had the same problem just before our oldest male in the pack assed away (whole pack turned on him) -you may need to get a vet check for the old boy-?

You missed the nip it in the bud stage when they started playing together, takes two to tango deal with both of them, ones now an outside dog and you need to teach them to stay away from each other or there will be issues