Thread: Why mixing headers and pointers?

Originally Posted by bunji

@Efalk There is no short answer to that so here goes.

Any properly trained dog should never be a problem around any animal you do not wish them to to target . We just got back to the homestead after a night of Spotlighting a neighbor's farm to help get their Rabbit/Hares number down & my GSP/Huntaway/Kelpie pup just retrieved 14 rabbits while we were spot lighting around paddocks full of sheep ,often quietly deliberately working its way around them with out disturbing them to bring the rabbits back ,later today it will be helping my Farm dogs move our own sheep .

In game rich environment's like we hunt in here in NZ ,you can have a variety of Upland Game as well as pigs , goats etc seen/encountered while hunting Deer for example ,so any dog needs to be trained to the point where they only focus on what you want them to hunt at the time . If you go back through my posts ,on a recent hunt my brother was along on a hunt & he wanted to try for a big ,one eyed Boar we had encountered while hunting Deer ,my wife & l both took a Deer each, with both my Vizsla & my Huntaway /GSP X scenting, tracking & pointing one each in the morning & then once we were back at the area the pig had been encountered ,after we found a spot the pigs had been turning over the soil, l was able to get both the dogs switched on through reward & praise ,to the fact l now wanted them to scent for pigs & they both successfully locked on & pointed them for us ,so my brother could get a nice one .

In my experience with a wide variety of "Gun Dog" breeds what the Huntaway/Header/kelpie etc X bring is not the fact they are "easy " to train in the first instance ,but that it comes about because they want to please you as the leader the pack more . My old man ran Cattle on the farm l grew up on & supplemented the Farm income by breeding & training working dogs & him & my uncle were renowned for it & large Australian Pastoral companies would pay them to go across with their dogs ,train existing station dogs & stockmen & purchase selected dogs from them at a premium . They both always theorized that the working breeds/blood lines we used, still displayed strong instincts from Wolves & the whole reason a good dog wants to please & push the stock to their pack leader, was from the wolves pack leaders , sharing the kill with the pack, l have a mate in Alaska who competes at the highest level in the Sled Dog scene & supplies proven dogs to other competitors & they display very similar characteristics .

What most people do not understand about Farms/Cattle Stations / Ranches with really good working dogs ,is it is not only the Dogs that are trained, but the stock as well & a good stockman (particularly with Cattle ) keeps a nucleus of stock that are comfortable with being worked by dogs & what is actually happening when you see good stock handling by dogs, is the dogs are trying to push the stock to their owner & the owner is controlling & actually blocking their herding , so the stock moves in the direction he wants ,not the way the dog wants & very importantly the stock knows the owner will protect them & keep the dogs physical harassments to a minimum if they respond by moving in the direction wanted .

In places like Australia where there huge Cattle/Sheep " Stations " are as large as some European countries ,since the Second World War planes fitted with sirens were used to round up cattle & sheep & move them the huge distances ,then after the Korean war Helicopters came into favor & they were used heavily right up till the last decade .What was found was they had generations of stock that were triggered into flight or fight mode at any disturbance & it had a measurable effect on weight gain, handling & quality ,so for around the last Decade working dogs are being used more & more replacing helicopters, ringers ,stockmen, staff etc & leading to much calmer & healthier stock .

Good working dogs because of the "wanting to please the leader" trait are revolutionizing the industry with new paddock designs where curved boundaries/fencing is now being put in so dogs can move stock with little close input & they are replacing huge numbers of staff & cutting staff & equipment numbers dramatically across the board , saving Station owners Millions every year ,this in turn means a good Kelpie for example goes for around $14/20K plus & really good lines easily double that .

I have always trained all my dogs along the same lines my old man & uncle use to train their working dogs, which was to capitalize on this "please the pack leader " trait & for me too many people over think it & instead of using the dogs natural instinct of wanting to work with & please the "leader" ,they either try to crush the dogs confidence thinking they are showing it who is boss & end up with a stressed out dog constantly in Fight or Flight mode , or treat it like a spoilt baby & then wonder why it thinks it is the leader & does what it wants .

All my dogs from the start are never yelled at, in fact l normally speak to them in a quieter tone than l normally speak ,even working our stock ,so they know to listen & pay attention ,there is no yelling ,whistling ,clapping etc etc while in the field hunting ,all the last thing you want from any hunting partner ,so l have no idea why some think it is a good idea with a dog & IMO comes out of " impressing" at field trials etc & letting dogs take control by ranging too far ahead, while l was guiding around the world all the best dog handlers in the field l watched did the same ,even with Leopard dogs & Sambar Hounds .

The dogs are taught from day one that hand signals rule & this also leads to them paying much more attention to you & performing as you want in the field ,a lot of the times now they actually watch my facial movement's & respond, so for example if we are in thick bush close in on a animal & l have my gun up & ready a point of the chin will send them in the direction l want, or a nod or shake of the head giving the wanted yay or nay response .Again look back to my earlier posts & you will see pics of my Vizsla scenting a unseen deer across a river crossing ,just before that picture, as we were scenting the deer trail along the river bank a couple of ducks were swimming in a back eddy a shot distance from where the Viz was heading ,all it took was a quick look back at me & me shaking my head for them to be totally ignored .Us & our dogs regularly creep up within feet of game , we caught a goat kid by hand, by doing just that a couple of weeks ago & we bring home a lot more game by doing our hunting silently & on our terms not the dogs ,all from reaffirming the pleasing the pack leaders mentality & enabling that to make the training easier not the other way around .

Yes it is funny to think that when a working dog brings stock to us they actually want us to kill one. They are probably disappointed when we dont.

@Efalk No worries hope it helped you understand a bit more ,another common misconception is that if a dog has a Bee's Dick of Huntaways blood in it ,they will all bay like a Blood Hound all day ,mine is trained not to make a sound us less l give the command "Speak Up", as a example again that large Boar in my recent post ,was tracked & scent trailed by my pup in such silence it was blissfully asleep in a sunny patch.

I would not have a dog that was voicing the whole time during a tracking/hunt or chased game unless on command ,or was not trained to know when to voice & when to remain silent ,again it all comes down to training or lack of .The Transylvanian Hounds l hunted over were all trained to work with the hunter ,no different to other "Gun Dog" breeds & as l say l was amazed how similar to our Huntaways they were in both looks ,temperament & hunting style .
@Moa Hunter Yeh a reason not to scold a dog that has put you on to game when it is excited to sniff & lick blood from the game on the ground & why l always make a fuss of giving the dog a deserving treat while cleaning the game on the spot,but l think the thing most have a hard time getting to grips with is how a good Stockman uses Cattle that have learnt that if they comply with what the Stockman wants ,they are less physically harassed by the dogs so they also look at keeping the "leader of the pack happy " for their own reasons & these can then are used to train upcoming herds & leads to much calmer Cattle when being worked in yards etc .

The old man went to Scotland for around 7 years with the dog training as well & brought some Highlands back with him he had been gifted & they were particularly smart at twigging on to the what is good for the stocky is good for them & they really were a pleasure to work with in the end .

Originally Posted by bunji

@Efalk No worries hope it helped you understand a bit more ,another common misconception is that if a dog has a Bee's Dick of Huntaways blood in it ,they will all bay like a Blood Hound all day ,mine is trained not to make a sound us less l give the command "Speak Up", as a example again that large Boar in my recent post ,was tracked & scent trailed by my pup in such silence it was blissfully asleep in a sunny patch.

I would not have a dog that was voicing the whole time during a tracking/hunt or chased game unless on command ,or was not trained to know when to voice & when to remain silent ,again it all comes down to training or lack of .The Transylvanian Hounds l hunted over were all trained to work with the hunter ,no different to other "Gun Dog" breeds & as l say l was amazed how similar to our Huntaways they were in both looks ,temperament & hunting style .
@Moa Hunter Yeh a reason not to scold a dog that has put you on to game when it is excited to sniff & lick blood from the game on the ground & why l always make a fuss of giving the dog a deserving treat while cleaning the game on the spot,but l think the thing most have a hard time getting to grips with is how a good Stockman uses Cattle that have learnt that if they comply with what the Stockman wants ,they are less physically harassed by the dogs so they also look at keeping the "leader of the pack happy " for their own reasons & these can then are used to train upcoming herds & leads to much calmer Cattle when being worked in yards etc .

The old man went to Scotland for around 7 years with the dog training as well & brought some Highlands back with him he had been gifted & they were particularly smart at twigging on to the what is good for the stocky is good for them & they really were a pleasure to work with in the end .

I wonder @Bungi if what you describe about stock learning has its roots in two things, the way that wild animals will shun a sick or injured one of their fellows and turn it out for the predators and the rest might seek out some bigger animals to run with, that the predator is more cautious of

@Moa Hunter Yes it is a interesting can of worms ,while we were in Arnhem Land & the Kimberley's over a couple of Decades ,prices for Live Export would hit peaks where rounding up the Scrubbers & Mickeys would become viable & we did a fair bit of it with the local Aboriginal Land Corps & TO's . This was a good "up close" study in Cattle behavior when they had had next to nothing in human contact & huge areas to wander with no hinderance , more often than not they would display opposite to that & actually form protective barriers for poorly animals or actually physically push slow movers to remain with the "pack" even in full "Flight Or Fight " mode .At times we would have to use the rubber buck shot out of the choppers to push them out ,when they would do this while holding up in a patch of thick scrub , of course the odd bastard on more than one occasion would decide to take you on while you were "treeing" or tying one off " for pick up later ,your only hope being they took their anger out on the "Bull Catcher" & not you or your off sider.

So l really think it is the stock themselves ,learning what stops the dogs harassing them so much ,making their life easier .

Originally Posted by bunji

@Efalk No worries hope it helped you understand a bit more ,another common misconception is that if a dog has a Bee's Dick of Huntaways blood in it ,they will all bay like a Blood Hound all day ,mine is trained not to make a sound us less l give the command "Speak Up", as a example again that large Boar in my recent post ,was tracked & scent trailed by my pup in such silence it was blissfully asleep in a sunny patch.

I would not have a dog that was voicing the whole time during a tracking/hunt or chased game unless on command ,or was not trained to know when to voice & when to remain silent ,again it all comes down to training or lack of .The Transylvanian Hounds l hunted over were all trained to work with the hunter ,no different to other "Gun Dog" breeds & as l say l was amazed how similar to our Huntaways they were in both looks ,temperament & hunting style .
@Moa Hunter Yeh a reason not to scold a dog that has put you on to game when it is excited to sniff & lick blood from the game on the ground & why l always make a fuss of giving the dog a deserving treat while cleaning the game on the spot,but l think the thing most have a hard time getting to grips with is how a good Stockman uses Cattle that have learnt that if they comply with what the Stockman wants ,they are less physically harassed by the dogs so they also look at keeping the "leader of the pack happy " for their own reasons & these can then are used to train upcoming herds & leads to much calmer Cattle when being worked in yards etc .

The old man went to Scotland for around 7 years with the dog training as well & brought some Highlands back with him he had been gifted & they were particularly smart at twigging on to the what is good for the stocky is good for them & they really were a pleasure to work with in the end .

I found a guy on youtube that hunts with Tazmanian hounds. Was it something like this you were doing when you were over there?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSX0envtRoM

If it was, it is pritty similar to our hunting in Sweden with different Spitz types. You can watch it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1008EuuOI
If you don´t have time to watch the hole clip you can fast forward to 38min

Or this clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8Gl7HSnSb8
Starting to get reaaly interesting after 13min

A bit off topic but I need to share this. Makes most people smile 😃

https://youtu.be/hotrA_9uyKA

@Efalk Great find about 5 yrs ago when we talked about looking at importing Transylvanian Hounds l searched every where & there was no videos on them & very little information at all ,in fact many sites claimed they were extinct .

I have only had a quick look at the Greek Boar hunting with them ,as we are battening down & moving stock on the farm for a severe Storm Front that is expected to hit ,but will definitely have a look through his other vids.

No the Greeks famously hunt differently to what they do in the Spanish Mountains & most other places, thank god ,l could not stop laughing at how quickly the Hounds got the fuck out of dodge when they knew the guy was going to start blasting away .

https://c.tenor.com/2WMbyzAbTw4AAAAC...asting-gun.gif

Originally Posted by bunji

@Efalk Also meant to add (but archaic forum system will not allow) while l guided & hunted in Spain in the Catalonia region ,the very Old School Hunting parties used a dog very similar in appearance , temperament & hunting style to our Huntaway's & l have actually tossed around importing them ,have a look at the weirdly named Transylvanian Hound ,which is actually a Hungarian breed that used to be favored by their Royalty back in the Middle Ages when Transylvania was part of Hungary . They are a fantastic dog to hunt over & l personally took Deer , Red-Legged Partridges & wild Boar with them ,much the same wide ranging hunting "adaptability " our own Huntaway's show & rather than getting another Vizsla these are far more " robust " Hungarian hunting dog .

I completely agree with you. This breed is the best for hunting. I've seen it in action, and I've heard stories about it from hunters. I've never owned one myself, but I've hunted with it.