Working dog

I know this is mostly a forum for hunting dogs but does anyone here have working dogs and have any advice?
I have a kelpie x everything and have somewhat trained her to help shift stock. She can be really good going back and pushing them forward and I can target certain cows to paddock draft when she’s really listening but some days her wheels in her head fall off and she’s a pain in the ass. Some days I have to send her off to “push” the cows while I wind up a reel or if I’m slow and she will bolt towards them so fast that she ends up flying past 1 or 2 and spins them back the other way. This afternoon she was quiet bad and then she spun the whole herd which she knows not to do. Any ideas on how I can fix this? Keep her behind at all times and slow her down. She just gets really cocky and enthusiastic. To be fair I haven’t trained her as a serious working dog, more of a helping hand because the cows here are use to being shifted with dogs when the boss is here and can be really ignorant without one.
Aside from this she’s used as a bit of an indicator and kill finder. A bit of an all rounder when she wants to be.

First thought is how old is she?

Turned 3 in June. She’s a really clever dog and will change her habits with the correct work.

Sounds a bit like she is changing her habits to suit herself a bit now :)
Either she is misinterpreting her "push" command or is just deciding to give them a good old chase around. Do you ever get her to bring the cows toward you while you are reeling the reel in to give them a new break ? could be she forgets if she is supposed to be bringing them to you, or push them away.
It can be an age where they think they should be making the decisions :) Try a bit of obedience work just before you get the cows. Sit, come etc... and see if that helps.
Otherwise maybe a bit of reinforcement with the commands, to remind her what you want and re-establish her need to listen.

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Originally Posted by rugerman

Sounds a bit like she is changing her habits to suit herself a bit now :)
Either she is misinterpreting her "push" command or is just deciding to give them a good old chase around. Do you ever get her to bring the cows toward you while you are reeling the reel in to give them a new break ? could be she forgets if she is supposed to be bringing them to you, or push them away.
It can be an age where they think they should be making the decisions :) Try a bit of obedience work just before you get the cows. Sit, come etc... and see if that helps.
Otherwise maybe a bit of reinforcement with the commands, to remind her what you want and re-establish her need to listen.

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Yeah she definitely is the type to think she knows best and would like to do what suits her. I find I have to be quiet hard on her.
Generally we will go get the cows, I’ll stand to the side and tell her go back and she will head behind them and push them. I do have to be super firm so she goes right to the back/ behind them and not towards them and she will go where I point. Sometimes If I’m near the gate she will try come back to me instead of wait behind them which is a pain.
If she has a fair bit of ground to cover she will run like a bullet, can’t put the breaks on quick enough and ends up amongst the back cows spinning them back. It’s like she’s just too quick and enthusiastic about it. It’s not too bad with cows because they know better but a real pain with heifers.
These are dairy cows and I can have her sitting on the yard all milking and she will push the cows into the shed for me without getting in the way, she will stay behind them all milking.

coomon as hell with huntaways......its more FUN for the dog to bust up the mob scatter off a few then chase the crap out of them to get them back.... work on you stop whistle untill it is ROCK SOLID....and use it,just dont let dog get bowled by cow.when dog goes to split mob,haul on the brakes.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

coomon as hell with huntaways......its more FUN for the dog to bust up the mob scatter off a few then chase the crap out of them to get them back.... work on you stop whistle untill it is ROCK SOLID....and use it,just dont let dog get bowled by cow.when dog goes to split mob,haul on the brakes.

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She’s such a cocky cunt. Took her to get the cows this morning, they are being a pain in the add at the moment with mating and chasing each other around in circles which doesn’t help, anyway told her to walk up while I wound a fence up, she took off pushed them and then it’s like she was trying to slow down but couldn’t and ended up flying up the side and spun the whole lot of them. Luckily when I called her back the way she went turned them back and they carried on as they should. I have a training collar which I have used with success so I’m going to charge it and put it back on her and hopefully get her stop buttons working correctly so she doesn’t set foot ahead of them at all. She was a real feral little pup when I got her and was actually out of control, she’s come a long way and has been doing really well but is getting a bit big for her boots and just being brainless.

Two ideas is she worked every day, it could be boredom causing pent up energy. Try running her for a bit to take the sting out so to speak. I had a beardie that was mental if not used for a few days a 2 k run cooled him off somewhat, after that he was a brilliant dog.
Is she coming into season? Even if she's been spayed bitches can sometimes get a bit loopy.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Two ideas is she worked every day, it could be boredom causing pent up energy. Try running her for a bit to take the sting out so to speak. I had a beardie that was mental if not used for a few days a 2 k run cooled him off somewhat, after that he was a brilliant dog.
Is she coming into season? Even if she's been spayed bitches can sometimes get a bit loopy.

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She’s worked most days and actually more than usual at the moment but when she gets like this I tend to leave her home to save a headache. She does love to work and run and will go all day so maybe she just needs constant work alongside her training collar back on. She does get a bit loopy if she’s had a day off at home.
Not sure she would be in season, she’s speyed and an only dog at the moment and haven’t seen any sign of it.

If she knows all the command's well then you can use the training collar but be careful not to ruin her and if you using the training collar only use it for one correcting command at a time. What's she like as a indicating dog on deer

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Originally Posted by hunt08

If she knows all the command's well then you can use the training collar but be careful not to ruin her and if you using the training collar only use it for one correcting command at a time. What's she like as a indicating dog on deer

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I have used the training collar successfully with her, she was feral when we got her, no joke the vets even suggested euthanising her. I ran into a hunter out in the kaimais and she acted like a rabid mutt and he showed me the collar he had and so we gave it a go and it was a game changer. She’s a completely different dog now.
She’s good with deer and has a great nose and is very careful in the bush. struggles to stay settled however especially as soon as the barrels lifted she would ride the bullet if she could. Great at finding the animal.
I’m an amateur but she does the job well.
She was brilliant getting cows today too. I Stood at the gate sent her off and she weaved behind them all the way out the paddock nice and relaxed.

Good news :)
was there anything different today before the cow round up ?

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Originally Posted by rugerman

Good news :)
was there anything different today before the cow round up ?

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No big changes I can think of, cows were down the back so she ran behind me all the way down and was probably more settled/tired. She also had the afternoon off yesterday so was possibly happy to be back out. I also fed her at lunch and she seemed more content.

mmm a bit tricky with more variables, but the easiest one to test next time the cows are close to the shed, is to run her along a long race for 15mins before getting the cows and see if she is a bit more settled when you send her in to get them.
haha sounds like an intermittent electrical fault in a vehicle :) doesn't do it all the time but usually when it's the least convenient.

At times my dog Skye can be a pita like that. But she is such a good dog and a great mate that I can tolerate a fair bit. Since she was a pup we have gone for a walk nearly every day and it was on those early walks that she learnt most of the basic's. If we go out to work the cows too early she is sometimes too keen, so I get her to run with the bike for a paddock or 2, helps a lot. But the one command that seems to sort out a heap of problems is the stop command, I cant whistle so its all by voice or hand signals. And she will always stop for a loud "NO" or the hand signal for stop or lie. Get that right, particularly out on those early morning walks, and you should be able to then give the correct command to remedy what was starting to happen.

The boss has a lovely young lab and she cant help herself when she sees a hare or a parry - just takes off and chases them, following her nose for the next 15 minutes or more. This last week the boss was away and I had both dogs to walk each night and morning. The first time she took off I gave a loud NO several times - wasn't listening. When she came back I gave her a bloody good smacked bum. Tried it again, I yelled NO, she stopped, look at the hare, looked at me, looked at the hare and then came back very submissive. We carried on for our walk.
Again yesterday she started after a hare, I yelled NO, she chased for a minute or 2 and then came back right to my side and I praised her for coming back. Next hare, she showed interest, but stopped immediately. Only 2 days of walking and a firm stop command and I think we have it sorted. After that stop command, you have their attention and you can give the command for what you want them to do. Dont leave the training to just on the job, 10 minutes of fun and instruction each day will work wonders.

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Originally Posted by Husky1600

At times my dog Skye can be a pita like that. But she is such a good dog and a great mate that I can tolerate a fair bit. Since she was a pup we have gone for a walk nearly every day and it was on those early walks that she learnt most of the basic's. If we go out to work the cows too early she is sometimes too keen, so I get her to run with the bike for a paddock or 2, helps a lot. But the one command that seems to sort out a heap of problems is the stop command, I cant whistle so its all by voice or hand signals. And she will always stop for a loud "NO" or the hand signal for stop or lie. Get that right, particularly out on those early morning walks, and you should be able to then give the correct command to remedy what was starting to happen.

The boss has a lovely young lab and she cant help herself when she sees a hare or a parry - just takes off and chases them, following her nose for the next 15 minutes or more. This last week the boss was away and I had both dogs to walk each night and morning. The first time she took off I gave a loud NO several times - wasn't listening. When she came back I gave her a bloody good smacked bum. Tried it again, I yelled NO, she stopped, look at the hare, looked at me, looked at the hare and then came back very submissive. We carried on for our walk.
Again yesterday she started after a hare, I yelled NO, she chased for a minute or 2 and then came back right to my side and I praised her for coming back. Next hare, she showed interest, but stopped immediately. Only 2 days of walking and a firm stop command and I think we have it sorted. After that stop command, you have their attention and you can give the command for what you want them to do. Dont leave the training to just on the job, 10 minutes of fun and instruction each day will work wonders.

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Her stop has seemed to stop working when she gets like this. My command is down because I also can’t whistle at all! I’ll have to do some at home training I think just to get the buttons working right again. I think she’s just so eager, sometimes it’s like she wants to do things right and she knows how to but she just can’t help herself but get carried away. I find rabbits a great training tool, she also loves going after them but I have managed to stop her with a firm no.

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Originally Posted by rugerman

mmm a bit tricky with more variables, but the easiest one to test next time the cows are close to the shed, is to run her along a long race for 15mins before getting the cows and see if she is a bit more settled when you send her in to get them.
haha sounds like an intermittent electrical fault in a vehicle :) doesn't do it all the time but usually when it's the least convenient.

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Currently dealing with an intermittent electrical fault in the car and your right it’s very much the same!
Thinking back to yesterday and I do think making her run down the farm to get the cows may have helped, she was more settled and too tired to muck around so done her job properly. Might be the trick. Will continue with some more work at home on her basic training and keep her well worked and “tired”. She’s the sort of do who will go all day. I could be on the side of a ridiculous huge steep paddock, point to the top and say go back and I can almost guarantee she will find a way to get to the back and run as fast as she possibly can to get behind the stock. She’s insane and just loves it. She’s only tiny 20kg or something.

I'm pleased it worked for you, but technically when you give the dog a smack when it comes back, you are actually punishing for coming back to you. The best is to chase her down and grab her so she isn't coming to you and then punish. That's one of the reasons I try to set up the dog so it's likely do misbehave, and at the point they are starting to do what they want, and after a load NO, or STAY I will then lob some lemons or potatoes I have on hand to close the distance and let them know you can still reach out and "touch" them. Of course it does help if you have a good arm and aim :)
the only other way is either with a shock collar and a long lead so the dog thinks it's out of range of you which is the usual time they will play up when they think you can't get them.

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Originally Posted by Husky1600

At times my dog Skye can be a pita like that. But she is such a good dog and a great mate that I can tolerate a fair bit. Since she was a pup we have gone for a walk nearly every day and it was on those early walks that she learnt most of the basic's. If we go out to work the cows too early she is sometimes too keen, so I get her to run with the bike for a paddock or 2, helps a lot. But the one command that seems to sort out a heap of problems is the stop command, I cant whistle so its all by voice or hand signals. And she will always stop for a loud "NO" or the hand signal for stop or lie. Get that right, particularly out on those early morning walks, and you should be able to then give the correct command to remedy what was starting to happen.

The boss has a lovely young lab and she cant help herself when she sees a hare or a parry - just takes off and chases them, following her nose for the next 15 minutes or more. This last week the boss was away and I had both dogs to walk each night and morning. The first time she took off I gave a loud NO several times - wasn't listening. When she came back I gave her a bloody good smacked bum. Tried it again, I yelled NO, she stopped, look at the hare, looked at me, looked at the hare and then came back very submissive. We carried on for our walk.
Again yesterday she started after a hare, I yelled NO, she chased for a minute or 2 and then came back right to my side and I praised her for coming back. Next hare, she showed interest, but stopped immediately. Only 2 days of walking and a firm stop command and I think we have it sorted. After that stop command, you have their attention and you can give the command for what you want them to do. Dont leave the training to just on the job, 10 minutes of fun and instruction each day will work wonders.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

On the days that she is giving you grief, try putting a front foot through her collar. Make her operate on three legs. That makes them more inclined to pay attention. Just be aware that they are like us and have a dominant side. Tying up the strong side is quite hard on them.

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I was going to suggest that too….old school but works. Letting the dog run before you work it seems like the best thing. Seems like most of it’s there for a milking cow dog…


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Originally Posted by rugerman

I'm pleased it worked for you, but technically when you give the dog a smack when it comes back, you are actually punishing for coming back to you. The best is to chase her down and grab her so she isn't coming to you and then punish. That's one of the reasons I try to set up the dog so it's likely do misbehave, and at the point they are starting to do what they want, and after a load NO, or STAY I will then lob some lemons or potatoes I have on hand to close the distance and let them know you can still reach out and "touch" them. Of course it does help if you have a good arm and aim :)
the only other way is either with a shock collar and a long lead so the dog thinks it's out of range of you which is the usual time they will play up when they think you can't get them.

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Hahahaha this made me laugh! Potato’s and lemons, that’s actually a good idea. Part of the reason i moved to a shock collar was also because she was so feral and when she knew she did wrong i couldn’t get near her, she knew she’d get a kick up the ass. .

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Originally Posted by tiroahunta

I was going to suggest that too….old school but works. Letting the dog run before you work it seems like the best thing. Seems like most of it’s there for a milking cow dog…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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No run beforehand today and she was average. Done her job but wasn’t with it. Looks like this is the solution.
She has so much potential to be a decent dog. She loves it but has a hamster going 100 miles an hour on a wheel in her brain.

foot in collar is a great tone them down trick....they hate it but carry on all the same....
sounds like you are on to it...realising it is a problem and doing "something" about it ,is big step to fixing it.
sounds like a fun dog to be around,would probably be two peas in a pod with my Meg......

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

foot in collar is a great tone them down trick....they hate it but carry on all the same....
sounds like you are on to it...realising it is a problem and doing "something" about it ,is big step to fixing it.
sounds like a fun dog to be around,would probably be two peas in a pod with my Meg......

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Might be a good trick to use in the rabbit ridden paddocks we have where she’s tempted to bolt from the job.
She’s actually a really cool dog and has a good trainable brain, she just struggles to keep herself together and her wheels fall off. She tries hard so with the right training I think she could be pretty decent

Chelsea, me thinks you've got a good dog, possibly a bloody good dog. so all you have to do is work out for works for the both of you. Classic example this morning, took Skye for her walk and thought we may as well move the cows while we're at it. Only had to get them through a 10ft gate right behind my house, what could possibly go wrong.......well she was so bloody keen for some stock work she was right in there, like right up their dates in there. going left, going right, but not giving them time to sort themselves out. 50 odd carry overs through a 10 ft gate in 30 seconds aint a good look. But they all got through, and some more of them now know not to mess with a dog nipping at their heels. Should've just taken her for her walk and done the job 15 minutes later after we got back. My fault.
and rugerman, fully understand where you're coming from, it is a very rare occasion when I punish a dog after they come back [buggered if Im chasing them tho!] but this time she knew things were wrong and she knew she was in the wrong, so she got a good smacked bum. Thankfully this time it worked. The next time I praised her after she came back cos she had come back. And she knew she was in the wrong for chasing hares that time too. Having said that, when it is my turn to walk the bosses dog, I keep her under control for most of the walk, but there are some places I let her go, theres plenty of hares and dogs just gotta be dogs. Knowing that, I let her have at it for 10 minutes or so then call her in and if I can get her attention she comes back knowing that some places its ok to go crazy.