Thread: 1911 vs P220

hey there

i've been pistol shooting for a couple of years now. i've got a couple of 9mm's, a Springfield XD for IPSC and a Tanfoglio Combat for action. (action has since added a production class but i enjoy the thrill of starting a match cocked-and-locked.) i bought both pistols without having shot them or their equivalents beforehand because that's how i roll, yo. i have no intention of modifying any pistol i own as i like the idea of 'competing' with a production pistol (this may change as age takes its toll).

i'm looking to buy a 45 because:
1. i'll be able to see the holes in the targets as i make them (rather than walking up after the match and hoping against hope), and
2. because i want a 45.

i've got a choice between two 45's that are about the same price: a Tanfoglio Witness 1911; or a SIG P220 DA/SA with decocker and no manual safety. both include enough spare mags for an action match.

pros and cons include:
— the 1911 will operate just like the other Tanfoglio i have, and is a classic design (though a clone);
— the SIG will require some additional training with the first-shot-double-action-only (or draw-thumb-cock-and-aim — though i need to find out if that's permitted);
— there aren't many reviews out there about the Tanfoglio 1911 so there's only the reputation of the maker and the original Browning design to infer from;
— the SIG has great reviews online.

any thoughts from the forum?

I have a Tanfoglio Witness 1911 that I recently bought second hand with <500 rounds for a mind-boogling stupid low price with 6 mags, a holster and 500 loaded rounds

It's a made in italy, rather than made in the phillipines version.

The Good.
It's a 45
It goes bang every time

The Bad
The laser engraving on the side is on the piss something chronic.
The same person that did the engraving also machined the front sight, cos it's also completely on the piss, not even close to be squared or centered on the slide. So much so in fact that I'm about to get it machined off and a novak cut instead, as the rear sight drifted out of it's dovetail is beginning to annoy me.

My advice, if it's not brand new get it checked over by a competent 1911 smith, but the good news it's a 1911 and parts are everywhere (although they'll most like require fitting)

Good luck

Just buy a CZ and have no problems!



Or the 1911 as a second place.....


And don't buy the sig.

Originally Posted by bluemonsta

…

The Good.
It's a 45
It goes bang every time

The Bad
The laser engraving on the side is on the piss something chronic.
The same person that did the engraving also machined the front sight, cos it's also completely on the piss, not even close to be squared or centered on the slide. So much so in fact that I'm about to get it machined off and a novak cut instead, as the rear sight drifted out of it's dovetail is beginning to annoy me.

…

cheers for that bluemonsta.

my 9mm Tanfoglio Combat is a bit of a fragile creature and choosy with the ammo — i broke the extractor on its second range visit with some Tula steel cased ammo, then had a squib on the very last round of factory ammo during another range visit — but it's grown on me.

i've read on overseas forums that Tanfoglio QC can be a bit random, and the last thing i want is a pistol that's going to want/need work straight after i get it.

Originally Posted by Beaker

Just buy a CZ and have no problems!

Or the 1911 as a second place.....

And don't buy the sig.

that didn't take long: a bloody CZ owner crowing and all

(i was tempted once upon a time by a CZ 97B.)

why not the SIG?

Originally Posted by petronious_arbiter

that didn't take long: a bloody CZ owner crowing and all

(i was tempted once upon a time by a CZ 97B.)

why not the SIG?

Big thing was fit.
Sig just didn't fit me. However, they may fit you.

Most modern pistols are all reliable etc.... speed and comfort are something different. Glock, para, sig - all not so good experience. CZ never a issue (1 round that I forgot to put powder in) and comfort all the way.

Originally Posted by Beaker

Big thing was fit.
Sig just didn't fit me. However, they may fit you.

[SNIP] Glock, para, sig - all not so good experience. CZ never a issue (1 round that I forgot to put powder in) and comfort all the way.

thanks for that beaker.

i know i should at least handle them, preferably shoot each one to get a real feel for comfort and fit. i'm still ignorant enough about pistol shooting — a trigger pull is a trigger pull is a trigger pull, though i'm sure i'll recognise the nuances eventually — that, based on handling similar or equivalent 1911s and SIGs, i'd be okay with either. and i've just seen that SIG make 22LR conversion kits for the P220.

The M1911 is a much better gun than the SIG but your reasoning for a .45 is way off. First, the SIG is not a good pistol for a couple of reasons: The design means the gun is very high in the hand and is consequently harder to control, and they have a problem with parts breakage. Buying a .45 just to see the bullet holes means that your technique is completely arse about face. It means that your eye is drawn to the target instead of concentrating on the front sight, and that will cause wildly inaccurate shooting. While the M1911 is a good gun it does not mean that it is the best gun for you. I would suggest a 9mm in preference to the .45 as it is easier to shoot and much cheaper to feed. Far and away the best choice in 9mm's is the CZ75 or 85 pistol. They are very well made of robust material (all steel, no aluminium or plastic!), accurate, capable of customising, ergonomically very good, and reasonably priced. In comparison, the M1911 is a harder gun to shoot accurately without a lot of experience, and the SIG is not in the hunt. A tweaked CZ is capable of 75mm groups at 50 metres in the right hands, and will last you all your shooting career.

Originally Posted by gundoc

The M1911 is a much better gun than the SIG but your reasoning for a .45 is way off. First, the SIG is not a good pistol for a couple of reasons: The design means the gun is very high in the hand and is consequently harder to control, and they have a problem with parts breakage. [SNIP] While the M1911 is a good gun it does not mean that it is the best gun for you. I would suggest a 9mm in preference to the .45 as it is easier to shoot and much cheaper to feed. [SNIP] … the M1911 is a harder gun to shoot accurately without a lot of experience, and the SIG is not in the hunt.

thanks for your thoughts, gundoc.

i may have been a little casual in the whys and wherefores of my search for a 45

if IPSC taught me how to move and shoot confidently and safely, action has taught me accuracy and consistency with its front-sight-front-sight-front-sight mantra, and all the while, skills from each discipline have really improved my performance in both of them. i currently shoot a 9mm so… i guess the real reason for wanting a 45 is just because (and because i've got the two on offer in my price range.)

so far:
— 2 x against the SIG;
— 2 x for the 1911, with caveats;
— and 2 x for CZs when i'm not even asking after them

Originally Posted by gundoc

The M1911 is a much better gun than the SIG but your reasoning for a .45 is way off. First, the SIG is not a good pistol for a couple of reasons: The design means the gun is very high in the hand and is consequently harder to control, and they have a problem with parts breakage. Buying a .45 just to see the bullet holes means that your technique is completely arse about face. It means that your eye is drawn to the target instead of concentrating on the front sight, and that will cause wildly inaccurate shooting. While the M1911 is a good gun it does not mean that it is the best gun for you. I would suggest a 9mm in preference to the .45 as it is easier to shoot and much cheaper to feed. Far and away the best choice in 9mm's is the CZ75 or 85 pistol. They are very well made of robust material (all steel, no aluminium or plastic!), accurate, capable of customising, ergonomically very good, and reasonably priced. In comparison, the M1911 is a harder gun to shoot accurately without a lot of experience, and the SIG is not in the hunt. A tweaked CZ is capable of 75mm groups at 50 metres in the right hands, and will last you all your shooting career.

he has a couple of 9mms , I thought that was also one of the reasons why he wanted a 45 .... hell even I want one just because ....

If I was after a .45 just because I wanted a .45 ( and that's a damn good reason) I personally would go with a 1911 as its the classic.45 pistol

Just wanting a .45 is good enough! I use a 1991 .45 M1911 Colt myself but my serious IPSC is done with my old 10mm S&W 1006 that I have been shooting since 1990. I got my first M1911 in 1965 (30 Pounds with a US holster and a pillow case full of ammo) and owned and used many of them over the years (including serious carry). I have a high opinion of them! Some of the M1911 clones are not as good as the original Colts but are still OK. Tanfoglio make fairly good pistols and the Witness should be perfectly acceptable for your needs.

Go for the one that will take the least amount of retraining from your method of shooting..... everything else about them being equal

@stumpy: cheers for that.
@res: yeah, nothing beats the silhouette of a classic.
@gundoc: thanks for the 1911 plug. i see your earlier point about the expense of ammo but… it's a 45!
@johnd: an excellent point about retraining. a longtimer at my club pointed out that the more pistols i want to shoot even semi-regularly, the less likely i'll be thoroughly familiar with them, leading to an increased likelihood of doing the wrong thing when trying to clear a malfunction and forgetting which pistol i'm using.

so far:
— 2 x against the SIG;
— 4 x for the 1911, with caveats;
— 2 x unsolicited for a CZ; and
— 1 x call for common sense.

belated disclosure: when i asked the action guys about buying a Tanfoglio for action shooting, to a man they rubbished the pistol and its maker, but being an ornery fella, i went ahead and bought it anyway and then i found out afterwards a third of them used the high-end Tanfoglios for competition. lesson learned: it's a free goddamned world

im for the sig!!!!!!