B endorsement

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Originally Posted by nseagoon

Pistol NZ has the restriction of a maximum of 12 Pistol endorsements on the licence at one time. It's in the memorandum of understanding and not in law.
basically it's a self imposed restriction as far as I'm aware. One of those carrots on the stick that apparently keeps pol HQ happy.
Unfortunately that includes any club guns that may be under the responsibility of a club armourer.

there's no restriction on the amount of C endorsed items. I know of a few people with over a few hundred items.
One doesn't even have a safe. He turned his workshop in to a strongroom so everything just sits in racks lining the walls.

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This may be true, however there are a growing number of Pistol Clubs that are not affiliated to PNZ.

I belong to two of these non affiliated clubs here in Hawkes Bay.

There is no restriction on the number of B endorsed items for members of these clubs that I know of.

Cheers
Pete

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Originally Posted by nseagoon

Pistol NZ has the restriction of a maximum of 12 Pistol endorsements on the licence at one time. It's in the memorandum of understanding and not in law.
basically it's a self imposed restriction as far as I'm aware. One of those carrots on the stick that apparently keeps pol HQ happy.
Unfortunately that includes any club guns that may be under the responsibility of a club armourer.

there's no restriction on the amount of C endorsed items. I know of a few people with over a few hundred items.
One doesn't even have a safe. He turned his workshop in to a strongroom so everything just sits in racks lining the walls.

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I meant there that I understood there was a cap on the number of people with C endorsement

As C is the collector category, it makes sense to have no cap on the number per person, as that's what collectors do

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Originally Posted by Tommy

I meant there that I understood there was a cap on the number of people with C endorsement

As C is the collector category, it makes sense to have no cap on the number per person, as that's what collectors do

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I've never read in any NZ Firearms Legislation or Regulation nor heard of a cap on the number of people that can hold an endorsement.

It's every citizens right to hold and endorsement if they choose to do so and are deemed to be a "Fit an Proper Person".

Cheers
Pete

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Originally Posted by Tommy

I meant there that I understood there was a cap on the number of people with C endorsement

As C is the collector category, it makes sense to have no cap on the number per person, as that's what collectors do

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Yes that seems ludicrous, Ie I win lotto and want to collect firearms and I have to wait for another collector to die before I can be a collector?!

I think we all know what the end result of that would be.

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Yes that seems ludicrous, Ie I win lotto and want to collect firearms and I have to wait for another collector to die before I can be a collector?!

I think we all know what the end result of that would be.

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Oh, yes totally, I thought it was nuts at the time. Sillier shit has been foisted upon us before though. Can't remember where I saw that, but I remember that 3000 was the number for some reason. Maybe there's hope for us yet

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Originally Posted by Tommy

Oh, yes totally, I thought it was nuts at the time. Sillier shit has been foisted upon us before though. Can't remember where I saw that, but I remember that 3000 was the number for some reason. Maybe there's hope for us yet

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Yea cos people with lots of money wouldnt do whatever they pleased :D so lets hope there is no cap.

Could you sell your quota, I wonder!:)

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Originally Posted by P38

I've never read in any NZ Firearms Legislation or Regulation nor heard of a cap on the number of people that can hold an endorsement.

It's every citizens right to hold and endorsement if they choose to do so and are deemed to be a "Fit an Proper Person".

Cheers
Pete

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I hope there's no cap as that would be simply policy and absolutely no basis in law. Certainly the first I've heard about it.

The funny thing about being fit and proper is the endorsement system means one is fit and proper but not fit and proper enough without the endorsement.
That's simply absurd.
All my inconsequential opinion of course.

As for the non affiliated pistol clubs the more the merrier I say. Plenty of organisations have too much of a monopoly over too much in NZ

Minor point for what it is worth but in our PNZ affiliated club we allow more than 12 for black powder pistols - I'm not sure if it is the collectability factor or the slow rate of fire but there is stretch on the 12 total for sure

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

As long as you don't forget who did the hard yards and made it possible for you to apply for a B cat. As in Pistol NZ, or NZ Pistol Association back then.[

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Totally understandable, no one is saying they're bad at all, but what IS bad is having one organization have control of a whole sport regardless of who they are, what they do or say.

Good one Gimp, mine took ages to get too trying to fit in being away for work and around inflexible club training programs. Explained situation and was granted extensions luckily.
Even offered to pay someone to train me outside club training program when I was off.
I know there would have been heaps of people keen to do it, especially some of the retired shooters they wouldn't wear it.....

Personally I think an option of doing an intensive one week pistol training course held in NZ somewhere with some of NZ's top shooters would be better. I know of a couple who would be happy to do this. You would learn a lot fast, and they would make an earn out of it too for passing on their knowledge.
Understandably you would still need a 6 month stand-down and club attendances before getting B endorsement but it would allow for the many people who don't work 9-5 these days.

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Originally Posted by mikee

I gave my B away after 20 years mainly cause I got bored with having to go to the range.
Shot IPSC and 3 Gun for most of that time too. Found even 12 visits became a chore to fit in round work and life and towards the end was just "going thru the motions" to keep the B.

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Just do what I do and put the pistol range on your property. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Dr. Watson

Just do what I do and put the pistol range on your property. :thumbsup:

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Like this!

Its not that hard of a process / requirements either.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

As long as you don't forget who did the hard yards and made it possible for you to apply for a B cat. As in Pistol NZ, or NZ Pistol Association back then.[

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Actually I believe The Kopanga Pistol Club in Hawkes Bay paved the way before PNZ was even off the ground.

Kopanga Pistol Club has never been affiliated with PNZ.

Cheers
Pete

how do you go about doing that the pistol range that is

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Originally Posted by mikee

Don't have any Uploadable Pics, I did an article for my Std Gun in NzGuns in 200 something

Heres a shoot I went to though way back in 2007. Was fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9764QnrNP6M

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Hey I was there, helping score that for OPC

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Originally Posted by Beaker

Like this!

Its not that hard of a process / requirements either.

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....go on?

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Originally Posted by gimp

Hey I was there, helping score that for OPC

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I was shooting in it. I was shooting the pump action from the truck at the end. Matt B looks anything but fast when you see him shoot............................until you hear his time called :D

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Originally Posted by gimp

....go on?

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Prob the hardest bit is the RMA bit, but basic after that - if aligned with PNZ.
- read the range design manuals......
- find land
- do some basic drawings on what will fit, etc...
- resource consent for use. We ended up having a non notified, just need to talk (and get signatures) from immediate neighbours
- build
- get certified

Theres a bit more in these steps, but not much. If your only wanting 1 bay, out side, quite easy.

Havent done it yet, but will be starting soon'ish, to design up a multi use indoor range(22 target, issf, and ipsc - down the line only, not full 180 deg) This is going to be even easier( but alot more expensive) than the outdoor side, as its just a concrete building, with certain design features, ie thickness on concrete, services locations, air flow, bullet catcher system, etc.... Current thinking is to put a light weight building on the top as a club house, as the roof slab will be rather strong. Simple :)

I'm not a expert, and have only been involved in the construction of 1 range complex, but,
I'm willing (within reason....) to help out and share info, with anyone that wants to try and build a range. In my mind the more ranges in NZ the better

Oh, and having local council & police onside from the beginning is a big help - council especially !

I was of the understanding that you needed a certain number of members to set up an approved pistol range? Am I right? Otherwise I'd set one up in my backyard!


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https://www.police.govt.nz/service/f...nge-manual.pdf

I'm not aware of any requirement for member numbers for a range. There might be, but I haven't seen/been told of it.


However, that circles around to the B endorsement maintenance issue. Even if you have a certified range, you would still need to do 12 attendances with a club per year. You could I guess form a club (not sure on doing this bit, as I joined a existing club). Would be nice to have one in the back yard for practice though..... (I just need a slightly larger back yard :) )

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Originally Posted by Beaker

....will be starting soon'ish, to design up a multi use indoor range(22 target, issf, and ipsc - down the line only, not full 180 deg) This is going to be even easier( but alot more expensive) than the outdoor side, as its just a concrete building, with certain design features, ie thickness on concrete, services locations, air flow, bullet catcher system, etc.

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Slight topic swerve. Howick Indoor Range was going through some challenges on maintenance a few years ago on their indoor range after 10+ years of heavy use by rimfire rifle, pistol and air rifle shooters. Decontamination of the bullet trap, updating air filters for the fans (and decontaminating them) with all the vapourised lead floating around, updated regs on min air flow and working out a better way of cleaning the lead dust on concrete floor as the original plan when designed/built back in the day to simply wash everything down regularly into drains. Now reg don't allow that waste water to be flushed into the system and must be collected and removed by certified/qualified companies.

Shot there for many years, I left after in fighting on the H&S Committee because the only way to do things, is the right way, which isn't necessarily the cheapest way ;) I don't know where they are now with this. Birkenhead Indoor range under the sports stadium suffered the same problem, couldn't decontaminate/clean correctly and they closed down. YouthTown decontamination is a biggie too.

Youth town was separate.
They only had a verbal rolling monthly rental agreement.
In order to invest 6 figures in ventilation a longer rental contract was requested.

That wasn't given so the risk vs investment was too high so the club was locked out.
Basically members of youth town Trust had been trying for years to get rid of the range and they finally succeeded.

The club was more than willing to upgrade and decontaminate but it wasn't viable in the end. Simply due to the lack of contract.

Also have a look at - Range Inspections

There some good design references etc....

Would suggest if you are thinking of a pistol range, a No Danger Area Range would be the easiest to do.
Look at page 27 - http://www.pistolnz.org.nz/media/12127/range_dev_3.pdf for heights of berms verse firing distance. I would also suggest that they be treated as absolute minimums for the heights. i.e. the books say 5m but aim for 6m, as the rules change over time and adding to a completed berm, due to slumping, erosion, or rule change - will be a major pain in A.

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Originally Posted by Kscott

Slight topic swerve. Howick Indoor Range was going through some challenges on maintenance a few years ago on their indoor range after 10+ years of heavy use by rimfire rifle, pistol and air rifle shooters. Decontamination of the bullet trap, updating air filters for the fans (and decontaminating them) with all the vapourised lead floating around, updated regs on min air flow and working out a better way of cleaning the lead dust on concrete floor as the original plan when designed/built back in the day to simply wash everything down regularly into drains. Now reg don't allow that waste water to be flushed into the system and must be collected and removed by certified/qualified companies.

Shot there for many years, I left after in fighting on the H&S Committee because the only way to do things, is the right way, which isn't necessarily the cheapest way ;) I don't know where they are now with this. Birkenhead Indoor range under the sports stadium suffered the same problem, couldn't decontaminate/clean correctly and they closed down. YouthTown decontamination is a biggie too.

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Very much agree with your points.
For once the yanks have some good ideas for indoor ranges - air and contamination.
The top of my list at the moment, is a snail type target area. Imagine a V on its side, and a circular portion at the back, off set.
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As mentioned, not cheap at all!! But do it once do it right.

Plus positive air movement down range, polished floors, painted walls, no dust collection areas, etc.....

Police range at Porirua was designed to have air be pumped through from behind the shooters and sucked in at the end behind the butts

If the inlet and outlet holes are evenly sized and distributed across their respective ends then the air flows in a manner called "plug flow" which has little turbulence but steady from behind the shooters and carries away any fumes and whatnot

Also was designed for use with frangible rounds FWIW

Dunno how well it worked in the end as I only saw it at the early stages but it's an idea

The snail trap looks really good

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I wasn't aware of that sorry Pete. You just buggered my argument.

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@7mmwsm

No worries mate.

There is a number of other Pistol clubs around the country that also are not affiliated with PNZ.

I know of one in the King Country and another in Northland and I'm sure there will be others.

Cheers
Pete

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Originally Posted by nseagoon

Youth town was separate.
They only had a verbal rolling monthly rental agreement.

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Yup, the closure wasn't related to the decontamination problems. I meant the owners are now going through the expensive challenges, through the original bad design.

To be fair it was a .22 range for a few decades before CSI. Back then it just simply wasn't a consideration. Even though now we know best practice.

I've done my 3 visits and put the form in. Think I'll enjoy it. Just the 6 month probation thing really gives me the shits. Specially when you already have endorsements.

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I've done my 3 visits and put the form in. Think I'll enjoy it. Just the 6 month probation thing really gives me the shits. Specially when you already have endorsements.

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@Beavis

6 months (& 12 Shoots minimum) will fly by.

Cheers
Pete

(almost) any muppet can get other endorsements

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Originally Posted by specweapon

(almost) any muppet can get other endorsements

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I don't see it as an issue

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I've done my 3 visits and put the form in. Think I'll enjoy it. Just the 6 month probation thing really gives me the shits. Specially when you already have endorsements.

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It is to cover the club Beavis. They are essentially vouching for you. If you turn out to be a muppet they suffer the consequences as well.

For me, it isn't the process behind attaining a B endorsement that puts me off competitive pistol shooting. It's the location of the ranges and their hours in the Auckland area, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Ryan

For me, it isn't the process behind attaining a B endorsement that puts me off competitive pistol shooting. It's the location of the ranges and their hours in the Auckland area, unfortunately.

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Maybe a move is in order? :)

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Originally Posted by Beaker

Maybe a move is in order? :)

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I'd move next to your range. Convincing the wife, something else.

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Originally Posted by Ryan

I'd move next to your range. Convincing the wife, something else.

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I may not suggest right next door..... there is a rather large pond, that gets its level refreshed when ever someone of the 30K people in Timaru have a dump....... :)

However a little further afield is stunning!!