Thread: 44-40 Reloading/Shooting

Originally Posted by Makros

Yea won't be the first time in the last couple decades over a couple forum platforms CH has been banned. I'm not sure he'll care and I'm sure he'll be back.

I can only assume he got a bit carried away with the "Thought Police" thread which also disappeared.

I very rarely read the " Off Topic" threads and even then only for a giggle

I hope the dies arrive soon and I can load some 2207 behind my 240 XTPs

Thought this may be of interest.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ads?authuser=0

Look who I found, and relevant.

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/v...hp?f=1&t=82002

Originally Posted by Jhon

Ha, sleepless night? Yes noted re twist. For 240gn projectiles I'm not sure there is an issue. Apparently all Rossi Pumas have a 1:30 twist. Have not measured that tho. What was the original twist for 44-40 do you know?

LOL, I forgot about this forum....yeap, it was a sleepless night!!

My understanding is 1:36" twist on the original 73's

Originally Posted by shooternz

All modern 44/40's have ,429" barrels the twist rates are more diverse depending on manufacturer the from 1:36" to 1:20"
Attachment 178742
This is the one I have should should shoot in all of them it is a clone of the original the important measurement is from the crimp groove
forward much longer will have feed issues.

Here is a bullet I had custom made by Accurate Molds. It is simply a modified Lyman 427098.

This photo shows both the 43-214A and a JSP crimped with a Redding Profile Crimp Die


LEFT: new 43-214A vs a dissected bullet that shows how the Redding Profile Crimp squeezes the case mouth into the soft lead. The forward driving band cast to .429" and resized to .428". for my application. Once the case mouth is crimped, this squeezes that driving band down to .422".


43-214A


I used this bullet to group 30 consecutive smokeless powder shots inside a 4" circle at 100 yards at 1,350fps.



6 September 2021

225 yards

must look back to see...but believe if you quote someones post it stays put,even when everything else goes under ban hammer..... MAYBE when see something you want to re reference endless times in future.quote it.... maybe.
pretty sure it was in this thread CH gave advice re duplex loading..... and it works really well. eg tiny bit of smokeless under black powder.

re trail boss loads....have a good look at the load data and take particular note of the pressures...in the .45/70 the TB loads have HIGHER pressure than 2208 etc....

Originally Posted by Tedz50

Pipe cutter cutter needs teeth or some means to turn cases but is also used to put crimping groove in bullets.

yes this post #32 prooves the theory........

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

yes this post #32 prooves the theory........

I made a case canular tool from a small pipe cutter just like Carlson Highway did...no "teeth" needed. The case is thin and easily manipulated. Here is a photo of a case I did a while back...it is the cartridge on the left.

Winchester depth seems to very.
mine (left), Winchester factory case component (center), Magtech (right)



Winchester factory High Velocity cartridge

reading this thread makes me want to get out my 92 Rossi, cast & load some lead bullets and take the wee carbine for a walk . .

Originally Posted by rossi.45

reading this thread makes me want to get out my 92 Rossi, cast & load some lead bullets and take the wee carbine for a walk . .

Absolutely,

Took my 73' to the range this past Wednesday and made these shots at 265 yards, replicating the 1866 shots by Swiss Marksmen during the 1866 Switzerland Trials using Winchester's Model of 1866 44 Henry. Ignore the ugly guy, if you saw him, you'd shoot too!!!


More details can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ad-development

Originally Posted by Bryan Austin

Absolutely,

Took my 73' to the range this past Wednesday and made these shots at 265 yards, replicating the 1866 shots by Swiss Marksmen during the 1866 Switzerland Trials using Winchester's Model of 1866 44 Henry. Ignore the ugly guy, if you saw him, you'd shoot too!!!
Attachment 194357Attachment 194358Attachment 194359

More details can be seen here: https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...ad-development

Great to keep the thread alive! Reloder 7? I'll have to go back thru the posts, not a powder I remember being discussed. Good to know! And good shooting at 250 yards!!

I had my Rossi 92 out to chrono some Vihtavuori Tin Star N42C . Not sure it is made any more but was developed i understand as a smokeless analogue for BP for CAS. I had high hopes that a lightly compressed charge would overcome bullet recession issues. I got reasonable accuracy from the 20" barrel at 50m with cheap Hawke River coated 250gn FP projectiles from Delta Mike, certainly M.O.D. My max load had the bullet firmly seated on the powder to the point where if seating deeper was attempted the neck tension was unable to hold the compression thus springing the bullet back. Nevertheless, the 4th bullet in the tube did recess about 4mm. None of the prior loads did. Velocity for this load was early 1400s fps. Giving quite a good shoulder thump. One case had a very slight split at case mouth after firing. No other pressure signs.

Most accurate was a couple of half grain steps back, with the bullet lightly touching the powder, heaviest crimp I could manage. Velocity in the upper mid 1300s. Plenty really for the task. No signs of recession with 4 in the tube.

I have acquired a mini tube cutter. Employing that is the next task.

One issue I have with the rifle is an in-consistent very light nick/ding appearing in he edge of fired case mouths, from first firing. I can find no pit or roughness in the chamber at the throat, but I guess it must be there. Unless it is happening on extraction. I think I'm going to have to borrow a bore scope one of these days

Originally Posted by Jhon

Great to keep the thread alive! Reloder 7? I'll have to go back thru the posts, not a powder I remember being discussed. Good to know! And good shooting at 250 yards!!

I had my Rossi 92 out to chrono some Vihtavuori Tin Star N42C . Not sure it is made any more but was developed i understand as a smokeless analogue for BP for CAS. I had high hopes that a lightly compressed charge would overcome bullet recession issues. I got reasonable accuracy from the 20" barrel at 50m with cheap Hawke River coated 250gn FP projectiles from Delta Mike, certainly M.O.D. My max load had the bullet firmly seated on the powder to the point where if seating deeper was attempted the neck tension was unable to hold the compression thus springing the bullet back. Nevertheless, the 4th bullet in the tube did recess about 4mm. None of the prior loads did. Velocity for this load was early 1400s fps. Giving quite a good shoulder thump. One case had a very slight split at case mouth after firing. No other pressure signs.

Most accurate was a couple of half grain steps back, with the bullet lightly touching the powder, heaviest crimp I could manage. Velocity in the upper mid 1300s. Plenty really for the task. No signs of recession with 4 in the tube.

I have acquired a mini tube cutter. Employing that is the next task.

One issue I have with the rifle is an in-consistent very light nick/ding appearing in he edge of fired case mouths, from first firing. I can find no pit or roughness in the chamber at the throat, but I guess it must be there. Unless it is happening on extraction. I think I'm going to have to borrow a bore scope one of these days

Great report, thanks!!!

I am unfamiliar with Tin Star. I have been told it is much like our Trail Boss powder. If so, Trail Boss is a fast burning pistol powder and creates a lot of pressure and yields little in velocity. For example, during my pressure tests, a case-full of powder, where the bullet sits on top of the powder without compressing or crushing the grains, was 9.3gr and came in at only 1,250fps at a whopping 15,128psi, still should be safe in the Winchester 92' types. The 1903 to 1942 44 High Velocity loads created about 18,000psi @ 1,570fps and was used in the 92'. You will more than likely never ever see any signs of high pressures with this case unless you far exceed those 44 WHV pressures.

My Reloder 7 loads yield less than 12,000psi and clock in at 1,351fps, safe for the 73'. Same load with a hard crimp creates 1,400fps and I am sure the pressures are higher but accuracy seems to be worse.

Underestimating the 44 Henry and 44-40 Range and Accuracy at The Battle Of The Little Big Horn
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...little-bighorn

The Battle of Königgrätz

Say what? During the time between 14 June and 22 July 1866, the Prussians fought the Austrians. These battles were well observed by the Swiss. It was here that the Swiss decided that they were in need of modern breech-loading weapons.

The Swiss made a Decree that they would find and arm their sharpshooters and Army with breech-loading rifles on 20 July 1866.

During the 6th and 8th days of October, Winchester had already shipped the Model of 1866 to Switzerland for the Swiss Trials. On these two days the aforementioned targets were made.

On the 12th of October the Swiss government proposed an order for 8,000 repeaters for their best outfits but soon changed the proposal to between 90,000 and 110,000 repeaters to arm all of their soldiers. A condition to the contract would be that Winchester would also provide all of the tooling necessary for the 66's to be manufactured in Switzerland. Winchester could not or would not agree and offered some sort of counteroffer with the Henry rifle. The deal fell quiet and eventually Winchester backed off. I am unsure of the details.

The Report To The Commission For The Introduction Of The Breech-Loading Arms was dated Oct 1866 and published in Winchester's 1873 catalog. The information I posted above is not included in the report. The report talks about the Winchester Rifle - A. The Trajectory, B. The Precision and C. The Rapidity of Fire.

Now you know the rest of the story.

https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...zerland-trials

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Pictures of people being used as targets doesn't do us any favours.

I'm sure I agree but if there is going to be a thread stoush over this please take it to PMs - this is not a thread to loose because posters got banned. Too much good info. Please.

No need for any PM's. The picture is of me. This is to show the actual accuracy of the arms potential when used by the American Indians at The Battle Of The Little Bighorn. Many of the ranges used were 200-250 yards.

Details can be seen here:
https://sites.google.com/view/44winc...little-bighorn