Thread: Annealing questions

Originally Posted by Breyt

The down side of annealing is its very time consuming if you doing it by hand and unfortunately its inconsistent.
A well timed annealing process will be a better way to get the consistency you need to get the ultimate accuracy and life out of your cases

Consistency = Accuracy Time = Money.

And that is exactly the major failing with "automated" annealing machines... The duration depends on a variety of factors - flame heat, wall thickness etc.

It would be an interesting experiment to compare the results of an automated machine vs a skilled person gauging colour change etc, especially on brass that has not been neck turned. In my experience doing annealling by hand (cordless drill and deep socket) is fairly quick and easy.

But really how much xtra life are you getting?? Say a bag of brass costs lets say $200 for 100 rnds, therefore $2 each and after using them 10 times without annealing that works out to 20cents, is that such a bad thing. Seams a whole lot if work for little fain.

Ok so I can see the target shooters rolling their eyes already, but I am a hunter and max distance for me is 500-600m, it's s whole lot of time and pain that could be better used filling the freezer. Which is full BTW

Just my 10cents

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Originally Posted by HNTMAD

But really how much xtra life are you getting?? Say a bag of brass costs lets say $200 for 100 rnds, therefore $2 each and after using them 10 times without annealing that works out to 20cents, is that such a bad thing. Seams a whole lot if work for little fain.

Ok so I can see the target shooters rolling their eyes already, but I am a hunter and max distance for me is 500-600m, it's s whole lot of time and pain that could be better used filling the freezer. Which is full BTW

Just my 10cents

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I just shoot targets now (too decrepit to hunt any more) and I did not roll my eyes when I read your post. For your situation, what you have outlined makes 100% sense. Annealing for target shooting and annealing for hunting loads are 2 different animals. For hunting loads there is benefit in annealing to stop necks splitting after many re-loads and to squeeze more life out of them (at which point the primer pockets may be getting a bit tired at any rate) whereas for target shooting cases are annealed every loading to maintain neck tension consistency. But like you say, for hunting purposes, after multiple loadings you are probably better to throw them and buy new.

Hamish, extended brass life is a side-benefit for me. The primary reason I do it is to get consistent neck tension. But I shoot a LOT and get thru my brass reasonably quickly. After about 4-5 firings I can start to feel a difference in the force required to seat projectiles. It's a bit hard to explain, but I do seating by feel - my brass is extremely carefully turned and prepped. K&N make a great little arbor press with a force gauge on it - very high on my wish list. That would be a lot more scientific way of measuring when the necks become case hardened.

You mean work hardened

Originally Posted by ebf

Hamish, extended brass life is a side-benefit for me. The primary reason I do it is to get consistent neck tension. But I shoot a LOT and get thru my brass reasonably quickly. After about 4-5 firings I can start to feel a difference in the force required to seat projectiles. It's a bit hard to explain, but I do seating by feel - my brass is extremely carefully turned and prepped. K&N make a great little arbor press with a force gauge on it - very high on my wish list. That would be a lot more scientific way of measuring when the necks become case hardened.

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse

Suggesting neck tension is actually pretty important, more important than generally accepted, maybe a lot more.

"Virgil continued: “You can change the powder charge slightly, and it won’t really make any difference, but if you change the bullet seating depth or the grip on the bullet, you’re going to see bad things happen fast.”"

In terms of hand v machine, generally I think its quite amazing how a person can train themselves to beat machines/tools. On that front it seems you need to be hand seating and not buying a fancy K&N tool. :p

Where do you buy templiue?... (yeah poor spelling, but the heat changing paint) seems the only a curate way.... at least for me.

Originally Posted by bully

Where do you buy templiue?... (yeah poor spelling, but the heat changing paint) seems the only a curate way.... at least for me.

Don't know where in NZ you can get a good deal. Only found 2 outfits - one selling a temperature used in the laminates industry, and the other who had 750 but wanted huge money for it.

I got mine here Liquid Temperature Lacquers
Cannot remember if I got it sent direct or via YouShop. I think it was YouShop and surprisingly, back then, they didn't have an issue handling it.
It is available on Amazon - will not send to NZ, and Ebay - hugely expensive to ship.
Going back to YouShop, I think I sent them the link and was surprised that they were OK with it.
You need to get 2 temperatures and the thinner. I really thought the thinner would get the thumbs down.
It is listed as non hazardous though but the way YouShop operates.....

I anneal my 25-20wcf cases mostly because there is no more available.

I hunted all over NZ and Oz and believe I bought up the entire stocks of both countries.

I anneal my other cases because I can.

Although I'm finding I'm becoming increasingly time poor, I'm also not too concerned about the time taken to anneal or do any reloading process for that matter as any time spent in my shed is time well spent.

Cheers
Pete

Originally Posted by ebf

And that is exactly the major failing with "automated" annealing machines... The duration depends on a variety of factors - flame heat, wall thickness etc

You are spot on with your findings regarding variety's. However using automated machine you don't have to skilled. After you did the settings for that case ( Case length to the burner because only the neck needs to be annealed ) and using tempulaq to get the right burning time you set the timer accordingly. Lapua cases takes approx 10 sec
The machine will burn each case for the same time duration at the same distance from the flame annealing each case the same

Originally Posted by ebf

It would be an interesting experiment to compare the results of an automated machine vs a skilled person gauging colour change etc, especially on brass that has not been neck turned. In my experience doing annealling by hand (cordless drill and deep socket) is fairly quick and easy.

We did this a few years back and the machine didn't fail using a timer and the same burning point each time, a very skilled person did not had the same results doing it by hand..

Originally Posted by Breyt

The machine will burn each case for the same time duration at the same distance from the flame annealing each case the same

Breyt, I think you misunderstand what I said. Each case IS slightly different - so having a consistent amount of time in the flame is exactly what I do not like about machines... Let's face it, brass cases are extruded from material that is not exactly consistent.

If you have a bunch of cases that have all been neck turned extremely carefully, a machine may well get reasonably close. Take those same cases on a different day and run the machine with the same settings and you could be cooking your brass... So to be safe, each time you use the machine you need to tune the timing cycle using tempilaq or something similar.

Originally Posted by ebf

Breyt, I think you misunderstand what I said. Each case IS slightly different - so having a consistent amount of time in the flame is exactly what I do not like about machines... Let's face it, brass cases are extruded from material that is not exactly consistent.

If you have a bunch of cases that have all been neck turned extremely carefully, a machine may well get reasonably close. Take those same cases on a different day and run the machine with the same settings and you could be cooking your brass... So to be safe, each time you use the machine you need to tune the timing cycle using tempilaq or something similar.

How does the machine vari day by day? that sounds like a human trait.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

How does the machine vari day by day? that sounds like a human trait.

For exactly the same reasons why the same batch of ammo performs differently on different days.

Atmospherics will affect the flame temp. Change out the bottle of gas, and the flame temp may change. Open the tap on the gas bottle just a bit differently, and the flame temp could change. Have a breeze running through your workshop, the flame temp may change. Big enough to make a difference ? You tell me.

The thing is that you use the same "skill" to set up the machine as you use to look for temp changes on the case when doing it by hand. Machines are often marketed as requiring less skill, and IMHO that is incorrect.

Id back the machine for consistency everytime.

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Id back the machine for consistency everytime.

Recently did a reasonable run of 308W. ADI and CAC brass. Set up using high and low temperature tempilaq. My annealer runs 2 torches and a 308 case takes ~ 4 1/4 secs. I needed to change the timer by 1/4 of a second when changing from ADI to CAC to get the correct tempilaq indications. Would an eyeometer be good enough to detect that? Mmmmm.