Thread: Annealing questions

I actually prefer Federal brass over Lapua brass.

Mostly because the federal runs great in my BRNO but I've had issues closing the bolt on Lapua brass.

Cheers
Pete

The main advantage of lapua in cals I have used it in ius the abillity to run higher presures.
But then i am no loading expert.

Or spelling expert.

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Yous fallaz dont even need the sweet gearz to get u some anealings bey

Heres the tools of the trade, a drill, suitably sized socket and a gas torch of some sort

i dont time it but i have done a shitload of it this way so kinda know what to look for when you put the torch on it

some 45 cases of different calibres that ive just finished annealing, nek step is ultrasonic cleaner

In the reloading world annealing plays a big part in preparing your cases for the next shoot. Unless you have deep pockets and buy new cases every 10 times you have used your cases. Some cases will last a little longer. The supply of brass is getting more expensive in calibers that make sense on target ranges or for the person who just like shooting in general.
To ease the cost of your shooting annealing makes absolutely sense. The down side of annealing is its very time consuming if you doing it by hand and unfortunately its inconsistent.
A well timed annealing process will be a better way to get the consistency you need to get the ultimate accuracy and life out of your cases


Consistency = Accuracy Time = Money.

Originally Posted by Breyt

The down side of annealing is its very time consuming if you doing it by hand and unfortunately its inconsistent.
A well timed annealing process will be a better way to get the consistency you need to get the ultimate accuracy and life out of your cases

Consistency = Accuracy Time = Money.

And that is exactly the major failing with "automated" annealing machines... The duration depends on a variety of factors - flame heat, wall thickness etc.

It would be an interesting experiment to compare the results of an automated machine vs a skilled person gauging colour change etc, especially on brass that has not been neck turned. In my experience doing annealling by hand (cordless drill and deep socket) is fairly quick and easy.

Originally Posted by ebf

And that is exactly the major failing with "automated" annealing machines... The duration depends on a variety of factors - flame heat, wall thickness etc

You are spot on with your findings regarding variety's. However using automated machine you don't have to skilled. After you did the settings for that case ( Case length to the burner because only the neck needs to be annealed ) and using tempulaq to get the right burning time you set the timer accordingly. Lapua cases takes approx 10 sec
The machine will burn each case for the same time duration at the same distance from the flame annealing each case the same

Originally Posted by ebf

It would be an interesting experiment to compare the results of an automated machine vs a skilled person gauging colour change etc, especially on brass that has not been neck turned. In my experience doing annealling by hand (cordless drill and deep socket) is fairly quick and easy.

We did this a few years back and the machine didn't fail using a timer and the same burning point each time, a very skilled person did not had the same results doing it by hand..

Originally Posted by Breyt

The machine will burn each case for the same time duration at the same distance from the flame annealing each case the same

Breyt, I think you misunderstand what I said. Each case IS slightly different - so having a consistent amount of time in the flame is exactly what I do not like about machines... Let's face it, brass cases are extruded from material that is not exactly consistent.

If you have a bunch of cases that have all been neck turned extremely carefully, a machine may well get reasonably close. Take those same cases on a different day and run the machine with the same settings and you could be cooking your brass... So to be safe, each time you use the machine you need to tune the timing cycle using tempilaq or something similar.

Originally Posted by ebf

Breyt, I think you misunderstand what I said. Each case IS slightly different - so having a consistent amount of time in the flame is exactly what I do not like about machines... Let's face it, brass cases are extruded from material that is not exactly consistent.

If you have a bunch of cases that have all been neck turned extremely carefully, a machine may well get reasonably close. Take those same cases on a different day and run the machine with the same settings and you could be cooking your brass... So to be safe, each time you use the machine you need to tune the timing cycle using tempilaq or something similar.

How does the machine vari day by day? that sounds like a human trait.

Originally Posted by ebf

Breyt, I think you misunderstand what I said. Each case IS slightly different - so having a consistent amount of time in the flame is exactly what I do not like about machines... Let's face it, brass cases are extruded from material that is not exactly consistent.

If you have a bunch of cases that have all been neck turned extremely carefully, a machine may well get reasonably close. Take those same cases on a different day and run the machine with the same settings and you could be cooking your brass... So to be safe, each time you use the machine you need to tune the timing cycle using tempilaq or something similar.

i have to disagree with your statement! Doing it by hand has a far beter change cooking your cases than a machine. Its like building a car by hand it takes ages and you make far more mistakes that the machine ever can unless your set up was wrong; You don't need any skills to set up Auto annealing Machine

But really how much xtra life are you getting?? Say a bag of brass costs lets say $200 for 100 rnds, therefore $2 each and after using them 10 times without annealing that works out to 20cents, is that such a bad thing. Seams a whole lot if work for little fain.

Ok so I can see the target shooters rolling their eyes already, but I am a hunter and max distance for me is 500-600m, it's s whole lot of time and pain that could be better used filling the freezer. Which is full BTW

Just my 10cents

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Originally Posted by HNTMAD

But really how much xtra life are you getting?? Say a bag of brass costs lets say $200 for 100 rnds, therefore $2 each and after using them 10 times without annealing that works out to 20cents, is that such a bad thing. Seams a whole lot if work for little fain.

Ok so I can see the target shooters rolling their eyes already, but I am a hunter and max distance for me is 500-600m, it's s whole lot of time and pain that could be better used filling the freezer. Which is full BTW

Just my 10cents

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I just shoot targets now (too decrepit to hunt any more) and I did not roll my eyes when I read your post. For your situation, what you have outlined makes 100% sense. Annealing for target shooting and annealing for hunting loads are 2 different animals. For hunting loads there is benefit in annealing to stop necks splitting after many re-loads and to squeeze more life out of them (at which point the primer pockets may be getting a bit tired at any rate) whereas for target shooting cases are annealed every loading to maintain neck tension consistency. But like you say, for hunting purposes, after multiple loadings you are probably better to throw them and buy new.

Originally Posted by HNTMAD

But really how much xtra life are you getting?? Say a bag of brass costs lets say $200 for 100 rnds, therefore $2 each and after using them 10 times without annealing that works out to 20cents, is that such a bad thing. Seams a whole lot if work for little fain.

Ok so I can see the target shooters rolling their eyes already, but I am a hunter and max distance for me is 500-600m, it's s whole lot of time and pain that could be better used filling the freezer. Which is full BTW

Just my 10cents

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Good point but for target shooters they want to hit the bull every time which is much smaller that the kill zone on deer.
Normally cases will last about 10 shots maybe more before they start splitting.
annealing your cases regularly will make them last about 30 shots each so if you make that same calculation its a totally different story

Hamish, extended brass life is a side-benefit for me. The primary reason I do it is to get consistent neck tension. But I shoot a LOT and get thru my brass reasonably quickly. After about 4-5 firings I can start to feel a difference in the force required to seat projectiles. It's a bit hard to explain, but I do seating by feel - my brass is extremely carefully turned and prepped. K&N make a great little arbor press with a force gauge on it - very high on my wish list. That would be a lot more scientific way of measuring when the necks become case hardened.

Originally Posted by ebf

Hamish, extended brass life is a side-benefit for me. The primary reason I do it is to get consistent neck tension. But I shoot a LOT and get thru my brass reasonably quickly. After about 4-5 firings I can start to feel a difference in the force required to seat projectiles. It's a bit hard to explain, but I do seating by feel - my brass is extremely carefully turned and prepped. K&N make a great little arbor press with a force gauge on it - very high on my wish list. That would be a lot more scientific way of measuring when the necks become case hardened.

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse

Suggesting neck tension is actually pretty important, more important than generally accepted, maybe a lot more.

"Virgil continued: “You can change the powder charge slightly, and it won’t really make any difference, but if you change the bullet seating depth or the grip on the bullet, you’re going to see bad things happen fast.”"

In terms of hand v machine, generally I think its quite amazing how a person can train themselves to beat machines/tools. On that front it seems you need to be hand seating and not buying a fancy K&N tool. :p

Originally Posted by ebf

Hamish, extended brass life is a side-benefit for me. The primary reason I do it is to get consistent neck tension. But I shoot a LOT and get thru my brass reasonably quickly. After about 4-5 firings I can start to feel a difference in the force required to seat projectiles. It's a bit hard to explain, but I do seating by feel - my brass is extremely carefully turned and prepped. K&N make a great little arbor press with a force gauge on it - very high on my wish list. That would be a lot more scientific way of measuring when the necks become case hardened.

If you need constant accuracy you need to anneal those cases every 1-2 shots