Thread: Anyone played with 223AI?

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
After writing my earlier post I started thinking about what hot shot .22 cartridge is about these days? A friend was waving a 6.5 Grendel in front of me yesterday and I wondered if something similar was available in .22. Turns out Hornady had beaten me to it with the .22 ARC based on the Grendel case. Fast twist for heavy projectiles. Yes I know @Micky Duck just like the .22 Savage High-power from over 100 years back. A 30 degree shoulder rather than 40 degrees for the AI and extra pointy projectiles complete the picture. Fits in a short action. I need to sit somewhere quiet for a bit.
Regards Grandpamac.
PS. It does look a bit like the Donaldson Wasp.

I got a 22 Grendel reamer made late 2014 so you are right nothing much new, built AR uppers etc & have a Howa Mini with it currently

Originally Posted by kiwi303

at least with a 223 factory ammo is reasonable and it would be quite usable with forming loads. 223 is cheap to run and I reckon Youd loose that with 204

I'll be in touch @Jaco if i do want to scratch the itch

Greetings @kiwi303 and all,
First my apologies for having, along with others, hijacked your thread. Parker Ackley came out with his series of improved cases in the 1940's and 50's. The idea was to get a bit more velocity from the limited number of standard cases available at the time. Large increases in velocity were claimed due to the case shoulder shape but little of the data was chronographed let alone pressure tested. Much more recently actual pressure testing has dispelled some of the myth. The only cartridge I can think of that has been adopted as a factory cartridge is the .280 Remington AI. Hodgdon publishes pressure tested data for both the standard and AI versions. The AI version is loaded to a higher pressure and charge, velocity and pressure are all linear (form a straight line when plotted on a graph. A little number crunching indicated that the increase in velocity was around 35 fps for the AI over the standard version, not the several hundred fps claimed by some.
If you really like the look of the 40 degree shoulder then by all means go ahead but there is another path. The .223 is most commonly chambered in semi autos in the US and these have particular requirements regarding port pressure and it appears to me that current data has been dialled back for some powders due to this. Of the powders I have worked with AR2206H (H4895) seems to give decent velocity within published data where some later data for other powders struggle.
Best of luck and regards Grandpamac.

If 3300 and 52 grn, 3200 and 55 grain or 2950 with a 80 grn isn't good enough for .224 applications I don't know what is. Thats what I get from my standard .223 Tikka. My 20" .223 is right on its heels. BM2 and 2206H do it no trouble.

Originally Posted by Tahr

If 3300 and 52 grn, 3200 and 55 grain or 2950 with a 80 grn isn't good enough for .224 applications I don't know what is. Thats what I get from my standard .223 Tikka. My 20" .223 is right on its heels. BM2 and 2206H do it no trouble.

Im sure somewhere in the past the same words were spoken about the 222 rem and before that and before that. But the never ending search for a better mouse trap and a faster bullet goes on.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Im sure somewhere in the past the same words were spoken about the 222 rem and before that and before that. But the never ending search for a better mouse trap and a faster bullet goes on.

You are correct. And Ive been sucked into the vortex often enough. I recently contacted Jaco to ask if he was getting a 22ARC reamer. What was I thinking . I must get better at taking my own advice.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @kiwi303 and all,
First my apologies for having, along with others, hijacked your thread. Parker Ackley came out with his series of improved cases in the 1940's and 50's. The idea was to get a bit more velocity from the limited number of standard cases available at the time. Large increases in velocity were claimed due to the case shoulder shape but little of the data was chronographed let alone pressure tested. Much more recently actual pressure testing has dispelled some of the myth. The only cartridge I can think of that has been adopted as a factory cartridge is the .280 Remington AI. Hodgdon publishes pressure tested data for both the standard and AI versions. The AI version is loaded to a higher pressure and charge, velocity and pressure are all linear (form a straight line when plotted on a graph. A little number crunching indicated that the increase in velocity was around 35 fps for the AI over the standard version, not the several hundred fps claimed by some.
If you really like the look of the 40 degree shoulder then by all means go ahead but there is another path. The .223 is most commonly chambered in semi autos in the US and these have particular requirements regarding port pressure and it appears to me that current data has been dialled back for some powders due to this. Of the powders I have worked with AR2206H (H4895) seems to give decent velocity within published data where some later data for other powders struggle.
Best of luck and regards Grandpamac.

Ackley is dear to my heart. I have all his books and notebook.
Yes, a gain in velocity was a benefit but Ackley said himself, in his books, that velocity increase wasn't the main driver. Eliminating or minimising brass flow and constant trimming with the 40 degree shoulder was one on his main stated aims. Reduced bolt thrust by using a very shallow case taper was another benefit.
Also a lot of the Akleyised catridges didn't give worthwile velocity improvement at all.
And of course it has become fashionable to create an AI nowadays even though the man himself didn't create it. I shoot a 6.5x55bjai which was not one of Ackley's. Bob Jordan, the American gun writer created that one. Bob Jordan also wrote a very good article in the Precision Shooter some years ago analysing Ackley's efforts and the later ones created by others. Some of them offer virtually no velocity improvement. I cannot locate that article now. I am not sure where the 223AI sits.

PS: The 6.5x55bjai is one of the more successful improvements. I running 6.5/284 velocities, using slightly less powder than a 6.5/284, and have hardly trimmed cases to date.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Im sure somewhere in the past the same words were spoken about the 222 rem and before that and before that. But the never ending search for a better mouse trap and a faster bullet goes on.

And the K Hornet before that and on ad infinitum.

Still, the K Hornet does give a great benefit - a proper shoulder to headspace on. Velocity wise the advantage is no longer as great as the use of Lil-Gun in a std Hornet gets those magical K Hornet velocities of the past.
I cannot bring myself to K Hornet 2 of mine - the BRNO and the Walther.

Hi all,

Over the years i have had 22H, 222, 223, 22-250, 22-250AI, 22-243 and have shot rabbits, goats, pigs and deer with them all.

These are my conclusions:

I can say the most versatile is the 223.

I can say i'm not a fan of fire forming or trimming.

The 22-250AI and 22-243 are great when you don't own a laser rangefinder.

They are all fun.

Originally Posted by Tahr

You are correct. And Ive been sucked into the vortex often enough. I recently contacted Jaco to ask if he was getting a 22ARC reamer. What was I thinking . I must get better at taking my own advice.

Ignore the advice and keep talking to Jaco. With out the yearning for better we would still be running around with stones and pointed sticks.

Originally Posted by sneeze

Ignore the advice and keep talking to Jaco. With out the yearning for better we would still be running around with stones and pointed sticks.

Classic. Funny.

Generally the improvement is 5 to 8% in my experience. The 223 will gain 100fps with the heavies and a bit more with the lighter projectiles.

The calibre with almost no gain when acklied is the 308Win. It gains less than 10fps, with 1 to 2fps gain to be the norm.
@zimmer I like your reading material mate. For me the big gain is in shooting the heavies at a little faster speed.

Originally Posted by Jaco Goosen

Generally the improvement is 5 to 8% in my experience. The 223 will gain 100fps with the heavies and a bit more with the lighter projectiles.

The calibre with almost no gain when acklied is the 308Win. It gains less than 10fps, with 1 to 2fps gain to be the norm.
@zimmer I like your reading material mate. For me the big gain is in shooting the heavies at a little faster speed.

The newer case designs and AI cases also need very little trimming.
I hate brass prep so have been pleased with my 6.5cm, 7 firings on Lapua brass and never trimmed.

Exactly my experience too.

Originally Posted by sneeze

From the other side of the fence, I have 3 improved cases. 243ai, 280ai and a 338 Norma improved. Fire forming is simply more shooting, I like shooting, the fire forming loads are generally as accurate as the formed, so gongs, targets , hunting is just the same as with the parent case. There is a gain to be had in velocity, how much is often debated but a gain is a gain. Example is the 243 ai with a 23 inch barrel running a 105 vld at 3140fps, is the pressure up on normal loads? maybe but lapua cases last 12 reloads or more and everything functions perfectly , over a thousand rounds in 12 years and counting. Cases don't grow, Iv never had to trim any cases. feeding has never been an issue ,I would not go back to the parent case.
That being said I dont think Id do a 223ai.

That is an excellent way of looking at it, I hate trimming but I love shooting, should be a no brainer