Thread: "Feather in my hat" 308win Featherweight load development

Greetings @dannyb,
Your chronographed results are about 50 fps below those Hodgdon got with the 165 grain Hornady after deducting 40 fps for your 2" shorter barrel. As part of a larger test I chronographed 43 grains of AR2208 with the Hornady 165 grain at 2424 fps a couple of years back. After making adjustments for my 20" barrel and the extra 1.5 grains of powder this works out to about 2,540 fps or 50 fps below what you got from the same charge. My rifle has had somewhere north of 1,000 rounds through it and has a long throat like yours. The CAC cases I used are lighter than Winchester. Accuracy was excellent and I wonder if your accuracy is due to a bedding problem, perhaps the stock lightly touching the barrel. If you wanted to go to a lighter projectile I chronographed the 125 grain Speer TNT with 47 grains of AR2206H in my rifle which produced 2.900 fps and decent accuracy.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @dannyb,
Your chronographed results are about 50 fps below those Hodgdon got with the 165 grain Hornady after deducting 40 fps for your 2" shorter barrel. As part of a larger test I chronographed 43 grains of AR2208 with the Hornady 165 grain at 2424 fps a couple of years back. After making adjustments for my 20" barrel and the extra Attachment 2288921.5 grains of powder this works out to about 2,540 fps or 50 fps below what you got from the same charge. My rifle has had somewhere north of 1,000 rounds through it and has a long throat like yours. The CAC cases I used are lighter than Winchester. Accuracy was excellent and I wonder if your accuracy is due to a bedding problem, perhaps the stock lightly touching the barrel. If you wanted to go to a lighter projectile I chronographed the 125 grain Speer TNT with 47 grains of AR2206H in my rifle which produced 2.900 fps and decent accuracy.
Regards Grandpamac.

hi @grandpamac my barrel is fully free floated, but it could be a bedding issue, I guess time will tell. I have yet to remove the action from the stock, was hoping to just get lucky and get an honest inch or better out of it without having to muck around.....anyways I will hopefully get out on Sunday afternoon for another range session with my seating depth ladder and my 150gn NBT charge ladder. if I cannot find acceptable accuracy I will get it bedded around the tang, recoil lug/chamber and fit pillars.

The felt recoil you experienced @dannyb is a potential problem as you know. If its feeling awkward shooting in those controlled conditions, it can be a real problem in the field when you’re trying to find a rest in gnarly country.

It may be stock shape related.

When my Tikka .308 was in its factory laminated stock, it could really bite if the stock wasn’t tightly well controlled. The 178gr ELD-X load I used for a time could really kick you on an awkward lie, especially shooting uphill. But for reasons I’ve never fully understood, as soon as I fitted the @DPT chassis, the recoil problem instantly disappeared with the same load. Night and day. Now I simply do not notice it, no matter what I’m doing. Same for the wife, she’s deadly with that rifle in the chassis. And that’s with a simple straight buffer tube and alloy buttstock, no fancy adjustable stock (and no recoil pad). It must be something to do with the recoil vector, the fact that the buffer tube is exactly level with the barrel, the recoil is sent in a perfectly straight line.

A few years ago one of the guys that used to be on this forum was making carbon Tikka stocks I think. I can’t remember his username but he was pretty well-known. I clearly remember a well-written explanation as to why the Tikka stocks transferred recoil the way they do and what could be changed with aftermarket handmade stocks to reduce the felt recoil impulse. But I’m buggered if I can find that thread anymore. Not that any of this is particularly helpful!

Considering the use of this rifle (range, topography, quarry) I’m not sure that spending a lot amount of time on the range trying to get a tiny group is going to pay off. You might well end up chasing your tail. A 1” to 2” group at 100yd is good enough to target red deer shoulders all day long. A good frangible hunting bullet will drop the deer from the spine to relatively low in the chest, its a way bigger target than a sub-MOA group really needs. Sub-MOA is great for long-range varminting, but a bit pointless for 200-300m deer, especially if you are holding over with the reticle.

Just my 2c worth…. Probably a reflection on a determined effort in the last couple of years to simplify what I do and the consequent bonus of not faffing around anywhere near as much as I used to!

Originally Posted by Flyblown

The felt recoil you experienced @dannyb is a potential problem as you know. If its feeling awkward shooting in those controlled conditions, it can be a real problem in the field when you’re trying to find a rest in gnarly country.

It may be stock shape related.

When my Tikka .308 was in its factory laminated stock, it could really bite if the stock wasn’t tightly well controlled. The 178gr ELD-X load I used for a time could really kick you on an awkward lie, especially shooting uphill. But for reasons I’ve never fully understood, as soon as I fitted the @DPT chassis, the recoil problem instantly disappeared with the same load. Night and day. Now I simply do not notice it, no matter what I’m doing. Same for the wife, she’s deadly with that rifle in the chassis. And that’s with a simple straight buffer tube and alloy buttstock, no fancy adjustable stock (and no recoil pad). It must be something to do with the recoil vector, the fact that the buffer tube is exactly level with the barrel, the recoil is sent in a perfectly straight line.

A few years ago one of the guys that used to be on this forum was making carbon Tikka stocks I think. I can’t remember his username but he was pretty well-known. I clearly remember a well-written explanation as to why the Tikka stocks transferred recoil the way they do and what could be changed with aftermarket handmade stocks to reduce the felt recoil impulse. But I’m buggered if I can find that thread anymore. Not that any of this is particularly helpful!

Considering the use of this rifle (range, topography, quarry) I’m not sure that spending a lot amount of time on the range trying to get a tiny group is going to pay off. You might well end up chasing your tail. A 1” to 2” group at 100yd is good enough to target red deer shoulders all day long. A good frangible hunting bullet will drop the deer from the spine to relatively low in the chest, its a way bigger target than a sub-MOA group really needs. Sub-MOA is great for long-range varminting, but a bit pointless for 200-300m deer, especially if you are holding over with the reticle.

Just my 2c worth…. Probably a reflection on a determined effort in the last couple of years to simplify what I do and the consequent bonus of not faffing around anywhere near as much as I used to!

very valid, the reloader in me strives for perfection and for rifles to be absolutely the best and most consistent they can be. At 2500ish the 165btsp's were manageable it was only when the charge was higher that it became a bit more booty than am comfortable with.
will see what happens at the range on Sunday, i'd be happy to use the 150NBT's if I cannot get the 165btsp's to behave. if neither show any repeatability or consistency then as above I will look at bedding but only as a last resort as you rightly point out this rifle's intended use and quarry is closer range deers under 300y hopefully well under 300y.

Danny I admire the effort you put into finding a perfect load, I have a question after reading this and your 3006 threads why don't you take the rifles out of the stock before you start load development?
Was a habit I got into with second hand rifles, check the bedding, give a clean to check there nothing jammed in there and sort the action screws, can save you components and time for something as simple as not sitting in the stock properly.
Good luck with it.

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Originally Posted by BRADS

Danny I admire the effort you put into finding a perfect load, I have a question after reading this and your 3006 threads why don't you take the rifles out of the stock before you start load development?
Was a habit I got into with second hand rifles, check the bedding, give a clean to check there nothing jammed in there and sort the action screws, can save you components and time for something as simple as not sitting in the stock properly.
Good luck with it.

Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk

yup valid criticism, likely a bit of bull at a gate syndrome to put it frankly.
Time at the range is hard to come by with a busy work and home life, I was hoping I would get lucky but it seems both rifles are being a little stubborn. I will get there hopefully without burning up too many components as that definitely is a factor.
The last few rifles I have developed loads for have all been custom bedded jobs or higher end very precisely finished rifles and they have been relatively easy to get shooting, I guess that kinda lulled me into a bit of complacency
I will need to check the bedding out on both sticks and probably should've started there in reality, bedding is not a job I am comfortable doing especially with very hard to replace wood stocks so that is a factor, there is time and a considerable amount of funds, I have been quoted $350-$500 to have each of these rifles bedded (recoil lug/chamber, Tang and pillars) so if I could get away with not doing it, it would have been nice.

Originally Posted by BRADS

Danny I admire the effort you put into finding a perfect load, I have a question after reading this and your 3006 threads why don't you take the rifles out of the stock before you start load development?
Was a habit I got into with second hand rifles, check the bedding, give a clean to check there nothing jammed in there and sort the action screws, can save you components and time for something as simple as not sitting in the stock properly.
Good luck with it.

Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk

+1 and a check and sort for rust

@dannyb
Maybe a worthwhile suggestion, or maybe not, but if you get no joy with Boattail bullets try some Flat Base if you have any.
My original Sako .243W barrel was pretty variable with any Boattail I tried but was amazing with Remington Core Lokt 100 gn bullets.

9 x out of 10 you only need to bed the front recoil lug and back tang, so as there is no stress on the action, then go futher if needed.

Originally Posted by 30.06king

@dannyb
Maybe a worthwhile suggestion, or maybe not, but if you get no joy with Boattail bullets try some Flat Base if you have any.
My original Sako .243W barrel was pretty variable with any Boattail I tried but was amazing with Remington Core Lokt 100 gn bullets.

Greetings All,
Strongly agree that a flat base projectile is worth testing. My .308 does not shoot anything with a boat tail well. It also tends to shoot heavier projectiles better. The rifle is a Remington 700 ADL made in 1975 which I have had since new. It has always shot well with the exceptions noted above. It now has a Hogue over moulded stock, a 10 power scope and a DPT suppressor and weighs a little over 4kg. @dannyb if you are going to get the rifle bedded then fitting pillars is probably worth the extra dosh. IIRC the original bedding was just a bit of synthetic bedding to the receiver installed at final assembly. Not bad at the time but that was a long time ago.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by dannyb

yup valid criticism, likely a bit of bull at a gate syndrome to put it frankly.
Time at the range is hard to come by with a busy work and home life, I was hoping I would get lucky but it seems both rifles are being a little stubborn. I will get there hopefully without burning up too many components as that definitely is a factor.
The last few rifles I have developed loads for have all been custom bedded jobs or higher end very precisely finished rifles and they have been relatively easy to get shooting, I guess that kinda lulled me into a bit of complacency
I will need to check the bedding out on both sticks and probably should've started there in reality, bedding is not a job I am comfortable doing especially with very hard to replace wood stocks so that is a factor, there is time and a considerable amount of funds, I have been quoted $350-$500 to have each of these rifles bedded (recoil lug/chamber, Tang and pillars) so if I could get away with not doing it, it would have been nice.

mate.......to bed for testing it takes no more than 20 minutes and $20 and the results of that will be as good if not considerably better than the day the rifle left the factory.....and its completely removable with very little effort..you have egzachary NOTHING to loose by trying it.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
Strongly agree that a flat base projectile is worth testing. My .308 does not shoot anything with a boat tail well. It also tends to shoot heavier projectiles better. The rifle is a Remington 700 ADL made in 1975 which I have had since new. It has always shot well with the exceptions noted above. It now has a Hogue over moulded stock, a 10 power scope and a DPT suppressor and weighs a little over 4kg. @dannyb if you are going to get the rifle bedded then fitting pillars is probably worth the extra dosh. IIRC the original bedding was just a bit of synthetic bedding to the receiver installed at final assembly. Not bad at the time but that was a long time ago.
Regards Grandpamac.

origonal bedding was a blob of hot glue gun snot,action was then slapped into place..... by redoing it you can poke some support out into knox area at same time and give recoil lug a decent new bed to lie in..... if you place something thin in barrel channel it will free float at same time... dead easy to put a bit back at tang if really worried but its not needed for testing...if he redoes bedding quicky job and it still wont group worth a damn... well look further... 3-5 shots is all it will need to confirm its doing better or not.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

mate.......to bed for testing it takes no more than 20 minutes and $20 and the results of that will be as good if not considerably better than the day the rifle left the factory.....and its completely removable with very little effort..you have egzachary NOTHING to loose by trying it.

appreciate the sentiment Milky just don't have a hot glue gun, not poo pooing your suggestion at all

the $20 will purchase one and some glue sticks LMFAO....

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the $20 will purchase one and some glue sticks LMFAO....

thanks