Thread: First attempt at reloading. Thoughts please.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and here is another free observation for you... @RUMPY may like to confirm this as seeing his targets with multiple loads made it plurry obvious to me. this is really easy to see for yourself as you look to have used a sticker for aiming point.
wait for it
wait
wait
wait
ok here it is
ALL of your groups are same size or smaller than your aiming mark!!!!!!!!!
nah stop,look again..let it sink in,look again....
unless you have huge magnification and can cut that orange dot neatly into 4 bits like a pizza there is simple NO WAY IN HELL you POSSIBLY CAN shoot a smaller group...you cant as you arent asking rifle to do so,youve asked it to shoot into the dot,and it has.

And that's a very fair point. When shooting for groups I don't use a dot, I either use a set of four triangles (one top, one bottom, one each side points to each other) or a box type target so you can clearly see the aiming point against the crosshair.

If you listen to some, by the time you find the best load you will run out of components, perhaps may not be able to buy more identical components and and need to rebarrel because the original is burnt out.

Like micky duck said, pick best 2 or 3 loads and retest, then go hunting. Time better spent than at a range.

Evening all. Thanks for all the support and advice. Thought id add some more thoughts after pondering the results and comments for the day. There was a few questions asked through out the thread so will endeavour to answer as much as i can.

The rifle itself is nothing fancy, just a tikka t3 that some one before me has bedded and dropped pillars into the stock. The action and trigger are pretty smooth and its a long action. The barrel was a 200 dollar T3x jobbie off trade me. DPT can on the front. Pretty much the standard NZ bush gun really. The scope is a bushy 6500 2.5 to 16 with a reasonably fine cross hair and at 100 I can split the one inch orange dot into four nice quarters. ( when the heat shimmer off the barrel and suppressor isn't making the dot flutter around like a monarch butterfly all around the cross hairs )

All shooting was at 100 mtrs here at Taupo deerstalkers range. Ambient temp when shooting was bloody cold in the shade.

The chrony is just a cheap prochrono and the suggestion of some LED light under the shades sounds like a worth while project one wet day. I'm assuming that the idea to glue some light strips under the sun shades to make the light consistent and there fore more accurate?

I weighed every charge on the digital scales but the suggestion has been put out there that I should use the thrower and average out ten throws and load from that. Surely weighing each charge carefully and loading that would be more consistent that the thrower? Or am I missing something?

The chrony hasn't been calibrated against anything fancy and we aren't talking aerospace grade kit here so one day ill check it against the labradar and see if its telling me porky pies.
The guy who is mentoring me uses the same one and his one is pretty good. He validates his loads out to 1100 yrds so I assume that's a pretty reasonable test.

@Moutere suggested to shoot a 10 shot increasing charge ladder. I assume that its one shot working your way up until you find pressure and look for flat spots in the plotted graph to see where a good stable node lies? And from there shoot groups with seating depth to find the best node? I might try that method for the next load I try. Have a stack of 162 elms that i might play with next.

The question has been asked, and its a very valid one, what am I try to achieve?
Two things really. One to develop a solid reliable hunting load and go and go hunting. I would appear to have achieved that goal and any one of those loads will work. None were heinous and some where rather nice looking. As a few have pointed out, I have not shot enough to really say that one is a .25 inch load as compared to the one that printed .75 . The sample is still very small. Having said that, I'm sure that I load up a dozen at 41.5 and wind the scope down a couple of inches I'm good to go and shoot stuff, most of my bush hunting in the CNI is within 30 mtrs. So...goal achieved. I can go hunting with my very own ammo and have confidence that if i miss its not the fault of my loads.

The second goal I wanted to achieve is a little harder to quantify, but I just wanted to learn if that makes sense.
In that respect I am going to load up a handful to go hunting with, but will continue to tinker simply to satisfy my curiosity. And to get better at what I'm doing with a wider variety of experience rather than just a having learnt one way of doing things, and be unable to change the process if problems arise.

So I think where I will go next is load up 5 of 42 grains and 41.5 and shoot those with a cold barrel and see if they group nice and the speeds over the chrony are firm. There was a series of articles in the rod and rifle a while back called loading for accuracy and if either continues to show promise I might try a seating depth ladder to see if I can spot any obvious trends that the articles suggested I should see. He suggested a ladder of 3 thou seating depth changes of up to 12 thou total (off the top of my head ) and stated that you will always find an accuracy node within this seating ladder size.

I also have some factory Nosler 140 BT ammo so will shoot and chrony that to compare to my loads. That should provide an interesting baseline of group size and speed to compare against. And cos, why not? They are sitting on the shelf so might as well see what they do.

@grandpamac has noted that there is data suggesting that 43.5 could be max load with the soft BT and as Im not seeing any obvious pressure signs, I may cautiously work up a smidgen more and see if I see any pressure signs. I'm confident I can identify pressure signs and the only time ive really struck it was with factory Hornady150 grn superformance in the X bolt. Be interested to see if there is another node above 42.5. But Ill be taking it carefully if I do bother with it. If the chrony tells me there is a stable node and it looks promising I might try a seating ladder.

As many have pointed out, I'm using barrel life and components that I don't need to. I don't mind as I am happy to burn through a bit of extra projectiles and powder if I learn valuable lessons that I can apply to the next load development project. Continuous improvement being the name of the game. And tikka barrels are a dime a dozen so who cares if i burn through this one in a thousand rounds time. The kimber is a different story and brass is not easy to get so best I do my practicing with the Tikka.

Apart from that I think ill get some loaded up and go hunting soon. And keep an eye on trade me for PPU 7mm 08 brass.

Cheers

Just be aware using a cheap optical chrono your results will be consistent but not necessarily accurate.
For example on the same day you might shoot early morning and get 2647, 2655, 2638fps.....then later same day you might shoot same load and get 2700, 2695, 2715fps.
Given if both sessions shoot the same POI in reality probably nothing has changed, other than light conditions, possibly closer or further from the chrono, the chrono could be at an angle slightly just as a few variables. But as long as your ES and SD stay consistent I wouldn't worry if the displayed speed varied between sessions.
Always use drop at a distance to verify velocity and bc or find someone friendly with a labradar.
Other than that if your having fun.....have at it. Just be careful working up towards max pressure as I'm sure your already aware.

also...if you find some cheaper cup n core projectiles,round or flat nose are fine...same/similar weight...grab them... your 30 yards-75yards shots dont require pin point accuracy and NBTs are a great projectile,seriously good... nice to have them in mag if long shot comes up,but ALMOST a waste at 30 yards.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

also...if you find some cheaper cup n core projectiles,round or flat nose are fine...same/similar weight...grab them... your 30 yards-75yards shots dont require pin point accuracy and NBTs are a great projectile,seriously good... nice to have them in mag if long shot comes up,but ALMOST a waste at 30 yards.

I have hundreds of 139 hornady interlocks siting here but I started off with the BT as they have a reputation for accuracy and good killing power. Being my first attempt I figured on something that was going to give me the best chance at a win.
Used the 139s quite a bit as a bush load in the 284 and they were great on sika. Have 139 sst as well. Haven't tried those yet.

At the end of the day the projectiles are probably the cheapest part of going hunting if your just shooting deer and not rabbits or target shooting.

yeah I hear you...but you see what Im saying??? can save your NBTs for longer stuff and your interlocts wont even need different load development as such...bang load together and Bobs your aunties main squeaze . rabbits or paper...even better to have a more common cheaper load LOL.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

yeah I hear you...but you see what Im saying??? can save your NBTs for longer stuff and your interlocts wont even need different load development as such...bang load together and Bobs your aunties main squeaze . rabbits or paper...even better to have a more common cheaper load LOL.

So just load up some 139s at 42 grams 20 thou off the lands and call it that ? No need to work up at this charge weight?

If you're interested in learning about reloading and ballistics then invest some time in watching some of the Hornady podcasts. It's a great idea to start with 'Your groups are too small' - a useful lesson in statistical significance.

https://youtu.be/QwumAGRmz2I

Originally Posted by Blackfern

So just load up some 139s at 42 grams 20 thou off the lands and call it that ? No need to work up at this charge weight?

thats what I would do..... if the 20thou floats your boat...or just leave the seating die alone from where it already is and make sure it feeds from magazine and chambers...no need to get all flash harry at all for this load. its still going to be better than factory jobbie.

Originally Posted by Blackfern

So just load up some 139s at 42 grams 20 thou off the lands and call it that ? No need to work up at this charge weight?

Greetings @Blackfern and @Micky Duck,
That is pretty good advice from Micky, especially for a bush rifle. For some handloaders the journey of developing a load is just as (or more) important as the destination of a final load. I need to state here for the record that I have a foot in this camp although moderated by my frugal nature. Some just take the middle load from the data, load that and call it done. We all need to find our comfort zone in this process. As a Super Gold Card carrying old fudd my main efforts in handloading are for F Class shoots and some 4P shoots at Taupo so accuracy is important especially at 600 and 1,000 yards. Over the next few years you will start to find your comfort zone in handloading. It is not a short process for some. Enjoy the journey.
Regards Grandpamac.

Ah, kemo sabe.
I'm sure all of the above are wiser shoulders and older heads, but I will give you my few cents worth.

You are trying to discern the dark arts of internal ballistics.
Unfortately these are generally discerned by measurable external ballistics.
As above your "good groups" or "near nodes" are somewhere between 40 and 42.5. No animal in NZ is going to notice the difference.

If you want to chase fraction of minutes of angle... you should weld the rest of the barrel back on and do what all the benchrest guys do.

I migh also suggest, if you can find it, 2206H might give better performance.
If all else fails, upgrade to a .45 (11mms)


-edit: I usually start and finish "20 thou" off the lands. Regardless of cartridge or manufacturer. (milsurp excepted)
Tikka are very well made rifles,
and the poor Finn that made the 7 inches of barrel you've so wantonly discarded is probably going to cry himself to sleep tonight.

Originally Posted by 11mms

Ah, kemo sabe.
I'm sure all of the above are wiser shoulders and older heads, but I will give you my few cents worth.

You are trying to discern the dark arts of internal ballistics.
Unfortately these are generally discerned by measurable external ballistics.
As above your "good groups" or "near nodes" are somewhere between 40 and 42.5. No animal in NZ is going to notice the difference.

If you want to chase fraction of minutes of angle... you should weld the rest of the barrel back on and do what all the benchrest guys do.

I migh also suggest, if you can find it, 2206H might give better performance.
If all else fails, upgrade to a .45 (11mms)


-edit: I usually start and finish "20 thou" off the lands. Regardless of cartridge or manufacturer. (milsurp excepted)
Tikka are very well made rifles,
and the poor Finn that made the 7 inches of barrel you've so wantonly discarded is probably going to cry himself to sleep tonight.

Lol😁 thanks for your thoughts and good humour. I realise I'm overcomplicating things to a degree but I'm happy to tinker now that I have got a hunting load. It's all part of the fun as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure that I will get over it at some point and focus on efficiency once I get past the enthusiastic amateur stage.
That...and my wife is starting to notice all the parcels of bits and bobs turning up on the door step. She is getting increasingly dubious of my protestations that reloading is going to save money....in fact the cost has doubled as she has just shouted her self a smart watch since I'm buying myself a never ending pile of kit. (And a new truck)

If it makes the Finnish barrel maker any better I'm keeping all of the kimber barrel...

Well your first attempt is far better than mine was. I would be over the moon if I had done that at the first try and would still be loading that 41.5 load every time.